Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

Factor/zero is basically orbital corrections.

Going by other developments, maybe acceleration 0.01.
Going by the guideline in HG on p17 (for power requirements for Man drives) it looks like Man-0 is capable of a maximum of 0.25 G; which is plenty for a 'Lifter' equipped ship (included for no extra cost in the Maneuver drive) to get to space. A 100 dTon ship uses 7 dTons and 2.5 power for Man-0, and also includes G compensators.

A Man-0 drive at the vehicle scale is 7 'spaces' to cover 100 'spaces' worth of vehicle; but the power and performance are a bit vague. Since the Vehicle Handbook is being re-written, it seems like a great chance to make sure these different-but-comparable systems each make sense in relation to each other -- more especially since installing ship-scale systems on vehicles (and vice versa) is supposed to be a feature.
 
Going by the guideline in HG on p17 (for power requirements for Man drives) it looks like Man-0 is capable of a maximum of 0.25 G; which is plenty for a 'Lifter' equipped ship (included for no extra cost in the Maneuver drive) to get to space. A 100 dTon ship uses 7 dTons and 2.5 power for Man-0, and also includes G compensators.

A Man-0 drive at the vehicle scale is 7 'spaces' to cover 100 'spaces' worth of vehicle; but the power and performance are a bit vague. Since the Vehicle Handbook is being re-written, it seems like a great chance to make sure these different-but-comparable systems each make sense in relation to each other -- more especially since installing ship-scale systems on vehicles (and vice versa) is supposed to be a feature.
Problem. A drive putting out 0.25G, as you are describing, has only overcome 25% of the gravity and therefore still doesn't float above the ground on a 1G world.
 
Yeah, I don't think so.

I came to that conclusion in the beginning, but comparing Space Station design sequence, I revised that, to only orbital corrections, with a distributed reaction control system.
 
Problem. A drive putting out 0.25G, as you are describing, has only overcome 25% of the gravity and therefore still doesn't float above the ground on a 1G world.
But a ship -- which gets 'Lifters' for free, included in every Maneuver drive -- does not need to worry about overcoming the gravity of a world. Even with the 'Orbital' limitation, a ship can get above the atmosphere of an Earth-like world, and accelerating at 2.5 m/s^2 it can get up to orbital velocity in short order. From there, raising it's orbit at a constant 2.5 m/s^2 allows an easy (is slower than a Man-1 ship) escape from the Hill-sphere of the planet.
 
But a ship -- which gets 'Lifters' for free, included in every Maneuver drive -- does not need to worry about overcoming the gravity of a world. Even with the 'Orbital' limitation, a ship can get above the atmosphere of an Earth-like world, and accelerating at 2.5 m/s^2 it can get up to orbital velocity in short order. From there, raising it's orbit at a constant 2.5 m/s^2 allows an easy (is slower than a Man-1 ship) escape from the Hill-sphere of the planet.
This is from the DSE pg. 37 under the description for the Armstrong. Just as an example and it has a Streamlined Hull. Oddly.

"The limited thrust has been criticised for
situations in which the vessel ventures close to a high-gravity
mass, although these are rare and usually handled with careful
use of the ship’s boats."

It is an M-1 ship.
 
Yeah, I don't think so.

I came to that conclusion in the beginning, but comparing Space Station design sequence, I revised that, to only orbital corrections, with a distributed reaction control system.
To orbit s planet a space station has to switch off its lifters.
 
But a ship -- which gets 'Lifters' for free, included in every Maneuver drive -- does not need to worry about overcoming the gravity of a world. Even with the 'Orbital' limitation, a ship can get above the atmosphere of an Earth-like world, and accelerating at 2.5 m/s^2 it can get up to orbital velocity in short order. From there, raising it's orbit at a constant 2.5 m/s^2 allows an easy (is slower than a Man-1 ship) escape from the Hill-sphere of the planet.
The law of unintended setting changing consequences.
 
This is from the DSE pg. 37 under the description for the Armstrong. Just as an example and it has a Streamlined Hull. Oddly.

"The limited thrust has been criticised for
situations in which the vessel ventures close to a high-gravity
mass, although these are rare and usually handled with careful
use of the ship’s boats."

It is an M-1 ship.
Lifters make that retconned to oblivion.

Come to think of it lifters also retcon a few other now unnecessary tech...
 
If this is what Lifters actually do. I guess We will have to wait for the definitive answer when Geir gets around to writing it. lol
Definitive until the next book comes around....

Anyway, right now the definition comes pretty much straight from T5. But even that is subject to interpretation and I interpreted 1D altitude to be 1D from the center of the world, meaning the first half of D gets you to the surface, so you can only go half a D over the surface. This does not fully align with the 1250 km disadvantage figure in High Guard, which I think was put in there because that's exactly the end of Short Range from the ground. But unless you're exactly on top of the target, it's out of range, so that's a bit arbitrarily silly. Of course all of this is arbitrarily silly, and has as much relationship to reality as a discussion on the length of elf ears.

What is less silly is some degree of consistency. Pick a standard; everyone has one. As much as I ignored most of T5 when doing World Builders I at least tired not to be inconsistent with 40-odd years of accumulated lore, so I found a use for Orbit numbers, and they sort of work (well, only if you stretch Orbit 0 through a taffy machine). The newly introduced stuff in T5, like the rad worlds and storm worlds that made no sense, that I completely ignored.

Lifters is sort of in a niche between what is consistently accepted and what is randomly introduced in one version and ignored in the next. It does make sense to me to have the three 'grades' of anti-grav: Lifters (1D), Grav drive (10D), and um, M-drive (well, shouldn't it then be 100D - nope, not going to do it but I like 1000D, though I suspect that's a minority view). I could instead drop Grav Drive to 1D, making it not good enough to even make it to geosynchronous orbit (around the Earth anyway), because 10D makes an orbital M-Drive shuttle pointless if you think about it.

Lifters without some minor motive power makes them no more useful than a balloon, (a heavy balloon, like you know, a lead zeppelin- sorry - or at least I pretend to be sorry).

Right now, as I said they are 1D altitude-limited, only available as a secondary drive (or on a structure, which by definition does not have a primary drive). They travel 5 Speed Bands slower than a comparable grav vehicle and they eat 10% of your Spaces. Now... half a thought is forming on height though - make those G-drives 1D, but since gravity peaks at the surface of a sphere, then decreases both up and down... make it 0.1 D above the surface for lifters - so enough to make low orbit - 800 miles or 1270 klicks above the Earth.... and 1270 is to 1250 as 'almost there' is to 'close enough'. How about that?
 
My only real problem with lifters is that they are a magical property of spaceship hulls. Effectively, in T5 and MgT2e we don't have Lifters. We have gravity resistant starship hulls. Just build a starship hull and it ignores gravity intrinsically.

T4 FF&S doesn't have lifters as far as I can tell, but I'm not really a T4 expert. I might have missed it.

T:NE has lifters, but they cost power, money, volume, and surface area. Maybe not a huge amount, but enough to make a difference. 2% of your hull volume, 10% of your surface area, and about MCr3 per 100 dtons of the spaceship. (It's a bit different for flying cars and that kind of thing). You aren't breaking the bank, but you are not putting that on your ship unless you are absolutely expecting to land on planets regularly. And even then, you'd think long and hard about whether its really necessary because you can just have a lifting body or airframe and do proper flight.
 
Part of the problem that started this discussion is that lifters just magically appear on ships and have no cost independent of the hull in MgT2e post Starship Operator's Manual.

Like I mentioned previously, we were limited by the scope of the SOM, but if you really want to reflect it game-mechanically, you can simply assume that 'non-gravity hull' = 'No lifters'; you halve the cost-per-ton of hull and halve the power consumption.
T5 does something similar in that, by opting out of having lifters, you recoup some of the cost you were spending on your hull (T5 isn't as granular about power as MgT2 though, so no word on that on their end).

So what distinguishes a Lifter from a Maneuver-0 drive with the 'Orbital Range' restriction? Would a 'Budget' (requires exactly one disadvantage) Man-0 with the 'Orbital' limitation (2 disadvantages) be able to take the 'Energy Efficient' (1 advantage) to bring it to the required 1 net disadvantage?

It never got into the final SOM, but we did think about equating M-Drives with the Limited Range disadvantage with G-Drives from T5, as both are M-Drive-esque devices with a range of 10 Planetary Diameters.

As for what distinguishes them, the Lifter works as described in SOM, it has a field envelope area and it accelerates everything within said field away from it – the acceleration is tiny, in the order of the centi- or even milli-G, but there's just so much stuff inside the field that the total force is enough to counteract the planet's gravity.
A G-Drive (read: M-Drive with Orbital Range) on the other hand works like an M-Drive, which is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike lifters. The M-Drive also couples to masses and accelerate them to generate thrust, but it can only couple to said masses if they are within range; the bigger the mass, the larger the distance the M-Drive will still be able to couple to them.
For planet-sized masses, this turns out to be 10 Diameters for the G-Drive, and 1000 Diameters for the M-Drive (as described in T5.

That's the idea, anyway.

[Edit: only now I realise you were asking about the Orbital Range disadvantage, not the Limited Range one. Yup, no idea honestly, I shan't lie to you. Maybe it's just an unfathomably shitty G-Drive?]

Definitive until the next book comes around....

Anyway, right now the definition comes pretty much straight from T5. But even that is subject to interpretation and I interpreted 1D altitude to be 1D from the center of the world, meaning the first half of D gets you to the surface, so you can only go half a D over the surface.

When we got to talk with Rob Eaglestone (and MWM via proxy) while writing the SOM, that was their intention, you can hover up to 0.5 Diameters above the planet's surface; i.e.: 1D from its centre-of-mass.

My only real problem with lifters is that they are a magical property of spaceship hulls. Effectively, in T5 and MgT2e we don't have Lifters. We have gravity resistant starship hulls. Just build a starship hull and it ignores gravity intrinsically.

If you'll allow me to put on my devil horn tiara and don my best sleazy lawyer suit? The High Guard ship construction system is highly abstracted – T5 even more so in some aspects (and weirdly... not...? in others).
Theoretically the hull itself must have a volume and must have a mass, even at armour 0, otherwise your hull is made out of vacuum, which last time I checked makes for a poor construction material. :p
Both ship construction systems abstract these away, and they do the same with lifters.

Personally, if I were making a FF&S equivalent for Mongoose 2nd (which I would not – I'm literally just a co-author of a fluff book, not a professional Mongooser – and do not want to do [that's what Geir is for!*]), I'd certainly look at Striker, FF&S Senior, and FF&S Junior and include lifters as an actual component that must be bought and tallied and accounted for.
But as things are, this is way below the resolution of the respective editions' design sequences. 'Tis what it is.
*Sorry Geir – I do love your work, though!
 
For Me this problem started when HG wrote that M-Drives are not omni-directional. When they were described as being able to accelerate laterally at 25% of the full rating and to aft at 10% of the rating is where this problem started in Mongoose. Just say that the M-Drive is omni-directional. Problem fixed. No need for lifters at all.

This is how getting too specific with descriptive text can ruin a good thing.
 
For Me this problem started when HG wrote that M-Drives are not omni-directional. When they were described as being able to accelerate laterally at 25% of the full rating and to aft at 10% of the rating is where this problem started in Mongoose. Just say that the M-Drive is omni-directional. Problem fixed. No need for lifters at all.
That 'problem' goes back to the description in the original SOM back MegaTraveller days. But you have to do something to explain why you need to put it at the back end. Or else people would put it in all sorts of inappropriate places.
(Reading those last sentences out of context is... well... don't).
 
I've got the start of a wind table going for task DMs and risks of Critical Hits if vehicles do not get out of the wind (especially airships, not a good plan, Admiral Moffett...). Size gets complicated as usual by the difference between volume and surface area changes and whether or not you can 'turn into the wind' - great idea in an open field, not so much on a bridge or on a runway - you gotta point the way you gotta point. So right now, it's probably overly simplistic, but at least it gives you a framework. There is of course the density of the atmosphere to content with, and I have noted that in there.

I have not considered size as a factor, but if I did, then I'd need to consider mass variances as well and that's out of scope for this one. But I wanted to do more than the Core book's 'Bad weather gives you a DM-1' workup.
I'd do it by wind rating. To try to do it totally by mass and surface area involves lotsa math without having good data. Provide the table and then a short explanation to the GM on how they might want to interpret the ship and the storms affect on its handling and even potential damage. Otherwise you'll never cover all your bases from 10ton small craft to 50,000 dton ships in the atmosphere of a gas giant.

I'd make the table somewhat agnostic between habitable planets and gas giants. Obviously the storm capability of a gas giant is greater than say a Terran-standard world, however you can have some real hell-holes of worlds with actual surfaces that could come close to gas giant hazards.
 
That 'problem' goes back to the description in the original SOM back MegaTraveller days. But you have to do something to explain why you need to put it at the back end. Or else people would put it in all sorts of inappropriate places.
(Reading those last sentences out of context is... well... don't).
Kind of stuck since Traveller uses Newtonian movement. Overall I'm fine with engines that push. Just be consistent with the tech and explanation. Everyone can easily understand something like that. Other universes can vary. David Weber has one series that has black hole drives that pull the ships, while another has grav bands that pull the ship as well, but from stressed grav bands above and below the ships. And another where the drives are kind of omnidirectional (much like Piper's universe).
 
The tunneller option was there before for ground vehicles, and I'm keeping it, though I'm beginning to think that the rate of progress is way too fast (Haven't heard much about the Boring Company lately, but I do remember the years of Big Bertha not moving under Seattle).
You'd have to factor in the idea of the drilling machine itself. Big Bertha (and it's ilk) have multiple things to consider, like heat of the cutting blades, the type of earth it's going through, how fast they can put in the tunnel supports behind it, removal of spoil, etc. It's quite complicated. Most people probably think of the sci-fi tunneling machines that just bore through the earth and leave the dirt behind them rather than create an actual tunnel.

Other than mentioning it as an alternate, I'd not waste a lot of time trying to make a game model for them. It's too esoteric and you have page limitations you'll have to deal with (not to mention the terrible complexity - think of the Chunnel or the Gotthard tunnel machines. They were custom built for that specific type of project and the Chunnel ones were disposed of when they were done, not sure what the Swiss did with theirs.
 
Like I mentioned previously, we were limited by the scope of the SOM, but if you really want to reflect it game-mechanically, you can simply assume that 'non-gravity hull' = 'No lifters'; you halve the cost-per-ton of hull and halve the power consumption.
T5 does something similar in that, by opting out of having lifters, you recoup some of the cost you were spending on your hull (T5 isn't as granular about power as MgT2 though, so no word on that on their end).
Apologies, that was not actually meant to be an attack on SoM or the authors. I just meant that it was a thing that exists now that was unspecified before SoM. I am aware that it came from T5 and I don't like it there either. T5 is far more annoying, actually, because they actually have rules for lifting bodies, airframes, and other subtypes of streamlined and then give every single space ship TL8+ magic gravity negators. It's all space magic and no one can reasonably be expected to write flawless fluff describing things that don't exist and quite possibly can't exist IRL. :D

I don't believe that lifters are compatible with caring about how streamlined your space ship is, unless its intended to be an aerospace fighter. So, to my mind, the fixes that keep lifters are to either ditch the distinction between unstreamlined and streamlined hulls' ability to land on planets or make lifters have a real cost you want to avoid if not necessary.

But I have the same problem with why we still act like its useful to distinguish between refined and unrefined fuel with purifiers being ubiquitous and almost all the penalties for using unrefined fuel removed anyway.

I just want Mongoose to commit to the bit, one way or the other.

Personally, I'm way too enthralled by 2300 style interface ops to actually use lifters in my campaign. But that's neither here nor there :P
 
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