I’ve finally splashed out on the Mongoose Elric and Hawkmoon products after a year or so of procrastinating. I’ve own all the previous incarnations of the Stormbriger / Elric RPG’s from the first Chaosium boxed set onwards (I remember returing from an early 80’s Gamesday in London proudly clutching it!). I have to say, that I like the rules of the Mongoose version. I like that magic has again moved out of the prevue of most PC’s as this better reflects the books. The last Elric version from Chaosium made magic far too run-of-the-mill. I like the combat rules although an extended example would have been helpful as the idea of downgrading the lowest, but successful, attack/defence roll to a failure is slightly foreign after years of the Chaosium system. At least this new version should make for quicker battles and fewer stalemates… There seem to be a few mistakes in the rules I’ve read through so far. Surely the Lore (World) skill in the character creation example should be 33% rather than 23% as he has received +10% in both the Cultural background and the Mercenary skills stages? The biggest let down for me is the standard of the artwork and graphics. Some of this is Judges Guild standard from the late 1970’s (for the aged amongst us)! It really lets the products down badly IMHO – say what you like about Chaosium but they usually got these aspects spot on. It’s a crime not to have decent maps in these products. Some of the maps seem to be rehashes of the original Chaosium board game map. Not good enough guys. Lets a very good set of rules down.
Thoughts on Mongoose Elric...
- Thread starter djd
- Start date
danskmacabre
Mongoose
I have to agree about the poor maps thing.
In the end I scanned the included map, used a photo editor to stretch it out horizontally (as it was very squashed up) and tidied it up, then printed it out on an A2 poster.
In the end I scanned the included map, used a photo editor to stretch it out horizontally (as it was very squashed up) and tidied it up, then printed it out on an A2 poster.
Loz
Mongoose
Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm glad that you like the rules and, especially, the magic. Lots of work went into making that fit.
I'm sure you;re right about the World Lore example; something like that usually gets overlooked, so apologies.
I can't, and won't, comment on the art. I would say that one of Moorcock's bugbears with the Chaosium version was the art and I remember the Unknown East's artwork getting a fair degree of flak.
On the maps - the Elric Companion has a map including the Unknown East. I'm attempting to convince Mongoose to release it as a PDF in all its technicolor glory...
I'm sure you;re right about the World Lore example; something like that usually gets overlooked, so apologies.
I can't, and won't, comment on the art. I would say that one of Moorcock's bugbears with the Chaosium version was the art and I remember the Unknown East's artwork getting a fair degree of flak.
On the maps - the Elric Companion has a map including the Unknown East. I'm attempting to convince Mongoose to release it as a PDF in all its technicolor glory...
Agreed that Unknown East was the weakest of the Chaosium issues art-wise but to be honest some of the stuff in the Mongoose Elric/ Hawkmoon line is far worse. A PDF map would be a great help but it really shouldn't be necessary as this is quite an expensive product and a map (with a scale to work out travel times) is pretty much necessary I'd say. An atlas on the lines of what Chaosium started would be most useful and welcome. 
danskmacabre
Mongoose
Loz said:
Yes please, that was the one I scanned and fixed up.
a colour PDF would be really nice.
Agreed. Whatever they do though, they cannot ignore this issue. I'm sure there are many customers here who like me have been gaming for a long time (1976 in my case). I have never seen a company produce as much product as Mongoose but at the same time have such poor standards when it comes to interior artwork and graphics. The maps in the Hawkmoon stuff are a disgrace. It really is back to the days of Judges Guild where the stuff looked like it had been done with a photocopier. In these days of clever graphics and maping programs there's no excuse. Come on guys, you're letting yourselves down! :roll:
Cleombrotus
Mongoose
I feel that someone must fight the Judges Guild corner here. I remember the City State of the Invincible Overlord, with its tables for rolling up the 'vital statistics' of female characters, but what it gave you were shedloads of maps, and the maps were utilitarian and, I always thought, attractive in their own way - maybe not their 'wilderness' hex maps.
They made you want to go there. I don't get that enthusiasm from Mongoose supplements, Conan being a noteworthy exception.
Why not a poster map of Lankhmar? That in itself would have made the product worthwhile. Especially since the city is the main character.
They made you want to go there. I don't get that enthusiasm from Mongoose supplements, Conan being a noteworthy exception.
Why not a poster map of Lankhmar? That in itself would have made the product worthwhile. Especially since the city is the main character.
LOL! Yes I loved City State of the Invincible Overlord too. Wasn't there a City State of the World Emperor or somesuch too? I remember having a few of those supplements. Not easy to use though - the key wasn't great. Chaosium's Thieves World was the most useable city product I ever had (wish I still did!). Dark Tower (?) was another Judges Guild product I remember fondly. But overall, their artwork and maps tended towards the crude. I've bought a second hand copy of TSR's Lankhmar - primarily for the map. If you're presenting a world setting / city, castle, etc for a RPG maps should be a priority- not something that may appear as a PDF later if you're lucky :?
Lankhmar is one of the great fantasy settings- sad to see that Mongoose have not put more into it.
Lankhmar is one of the great fantasy settings- sad to see that Mongoose have not put more into it.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
Sadly Judges Guild maps were far better!
I decided to splash out on ebay for a replacement copy of Thieves World- will probably use it as another plane in my Elric campaign. It was the only city supplement I've used where the players managed to a) really start to find their way around and b) really started to feel like they lived there. It's such a shame that Mongoose's Lankhmar wasn't up to the same standard as it's such a cool city in the literature...
Slytovhand
Mongoose
I'm wondering to myself just what it is that you guys have been having, cos I've just gone through my collection of Elric's and Stormbringers (including supplements), and the artwork in Mongoose is at least equal to about the best in all of those put together (bar one or 2... still trying to get my head around that pirate/sailer pic...). Ok - there's no colour in them - but unless I've missed an edition (from about '81 onwards, including the 93 edition) there's not a single colour in the lot of tthem.
there are some great pics in the older stuff, and some not so great in the ME stuff.. so I don't understand the argument... unless you want to bring in other RPG productions .. some oof which have a much larger budget to work with. Yeah - the double-page colour stuff in D&D 4e are great to look at (well... sort of - to me they still lack something... 'feel' perhaps??)
Besides, I look upon it all as a theme... not having it as colour keeps a certain amount of 'darkness' to it all...detailed, but dark.
Maps... well, as for Elric, it does pose the question of do you go with the books (in which case the maps should be pretty sparse - I don't recall Elric getting out and about to a lot of the places shown on those maps...), or from a gm/player perspective. And even then, what happened to imagination?? For my money, I'd want a map that gives a nice overall feel to the world, and anything really more specific should go into a supplement... or draw your own... it's not really that important.
And back to the OP - and the magic issue... I think it comes down to competing between the world of Elric, vs playing in a fantasy setting. If you've done RQ, then you expect (and rely on) high doses of magic - at least enough to heal you up for the next battle. If you want the flavour of the worlds, then it's a lot lower - as represented by the Elric rules on it.
/2cents
there are some great pics in the older stuff, and some not so great in the ME stuff.. so I don't understand the argument... unless you want to bring in other RPG productions .. some oof which have a much larger budget to work with. Yeah - the double-page colour stuff in D&D 4e are great to look at (well... sort of - to me they still lack something... 'feel' perhaps??)
Besides, I look upon it all as a theme... not having it as colour keeps a certain amount of 'darkness' to it all...detailed, but dark.
Maps... well, as for Elric, it does pose the question of do you go with the books (in which case the maps should be pretty sparse - I don't recall Elric getting out and about to a lot of the places shown on those maps...), or from a gm/player perspective. And even then, what happened to imagination?? For my money, I'd want a map that gives a nice overall feel to the world, and anything really more specific should go into a supplement... or draw your own... it's not really that important.
And back to the OP - and the magic issue... I think it comes down to competing between the world of Elric, vs playing in a fantasy setting. If you've done RQ, then you expect (and rely on) high doses of magic - at least enough to heal you up for the next battle. If you want the flavour of the worlds, then it's a lot lower - as represented by the Elric rules on it.
/2cents
I've no issue at all with colour art- black and white is fine. The quality of some of the stuff in the Elric and Hawkmoon stuff is very poor though. The maps in Castle Brass are the nadir of the range. Really poor indeed. The map in the Elric Companion is ok but far too small to be of that much use. I've no issue with the detailed maps appearing in supplements as you suggest but we now have three supplements for bothe Elric and Hawkmoon and not a good map between them!...I've plenty of imagination but using 'use you imagination' as an excuse could be an excuse for leaving anything out of a RPG product! I'm not having a go for the sake of it- I'm just disapointed for Mongoose and disapointed because the Elric/Hawkmoon stuff has been my favourite setting for many years. Lankhmar was equally disapointing for the same reason- a tiny map that was mostly (but not quite) the same as the TSR version but was too small to really be of that much use. A fantasy setting has to be about the physical nature of the place - which has to include the actual geography. If I'm buying a RPG supplement I don't want to be having to produce my own maps. I don't think thats unreasonable! As I've said above- Chaosiums Thieves World was the best example I've seen of a city setting. The same treatment for Lankhmar would have been fantastic.
Slytovhand
Mongoose
Oh, Ok DJD... just the OP mentioned about graphics and artwork, then maps in particular...
And I agree, if they don't keep putting them up in the other supplements as well... (and I can't comment on Hawkmoon). Lankhmar in general isn't jumping out at me.
And yes, in looking at the 2 only a couple of mins apart, yep, I think it's the same map... it's certainly done in exactly the same style. (again, not that I have a problem with that, but damn I'd like a real nice one to put on a wall somewhere - I think I've seen that at some stage in the past..yes???)
And I agree, if they don't keep putting them up in the other supplements as well... (and I can't comment on Hawkmoon). Lankhmar in general isn't jumping out at me.
And yes, in looking at the 2 only a couple of mins apart, yep, I think it's the same map... it's certainly done in exactly the same style. (again, not that I have a problem with that, but damn I'd like a real nice one to put on a wall somewhere - I think I've seen that at some stage in the past..yes???)
In most of the Runequest books the maps look like they've been rendered in colour then coverted to greyscale without really worrying about contrast or legibility, the same goes for a lot of the internal images.
Saying that though, I thought the Core Elric book looked quite cool, both art work and text.
THough personally I find the 'fancy borders' distracting and would rather have simpler, less cluttered page with more text and larger clearer maps.
But I supose this is personal preference.
Saying that though, I thought the Core Elric book looked quite cool, both art work and text.
THough personally I find the 'fancy borders' distracting and would rather have simpler, less cluttered page with more text and larger clearer maps.
But I supose this is personal preference.
The core book for Elric is quite decent on the art front- the same can't be said for the supplements that followed sadly. Please, please will Mongoose publish a decent Young Kingdoms Atlas? Something produced as nicely as Ruins of Hyboria would be good
Anyway, managed to get a copy of TSR Lankhmar and Chaosium Thieves World on ebay so that'll keep me happy for a bit Have also been listening to the audio book version of Elric of Melnibone on the way to work. Well worth a listen.
Anyway, managed to get a copy of TSR Lankhmar and Chaosium Thieves World on ebay so that'll keep me happy for a bit
Have also been listening to the audio book version of Elric of Melnibone on the way to work. Well worth a listen.Similar threads
