The more "Adult" aspects of RuneQuest/Glorantha...
- Thread starter Natashi Kumiko
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GbajiTheDeceiver
Mongoose
Peace! I'm only speaking from my own experience here. If it doesn't match other peoples, then I'm sorry.jorganos said:
jorganos said:
Correct. There's nothing unrealistic at all about the cultural mix of Dragon Pass. My initial thought when I read the other post was that this is something that doesn't bother us Americans nearly as much because we have such a cultural mix in our country that we deal with day-to-day, especially those in places like southern California where Stafford and co. live. (It integrates a bit more due to modern transportation and societal dynamics perhaps.)
homerjsinnott said:Cobra said:
So like the real world then, which also wasn't built to some grand scheme, unless you actually believe in Intelligent Design... :lol: :roll:
Can you expand on what you mean by teenagery? If by that you mean a plethora of cultures/peoples smashed upon one another which doesn't seem to you to make any kind of sense, then study India or the Balkans.
And if you are worried about place names not making sense, then come to Oxford where North Parade is south of South Parade, or go to Cumbria where there is a Hill Hill Hill Hill (Torpenhow hill).
The real world doesn't make complete sense, it's not new news, so why should a fantasy one?
Well, fair enough that there are individual places in the world that don't make sense. We have many such places, too. There's a place near here called Punkydoodles Corners, for deity's sake. But I just don't get the sense of the evolution of language and culture such as one finds on Earth. While I don't object to the individual placenames of glorantha, I find their spatial distribution to be rather random. Placenames and language on earth have spread slowly and gradually. Slavic names sound distinctly slavic and are generall located in the same region on earth. Similarly Romance names, etc.
While I think many of the names in Glorantha are fabulous, to me there is just that ring of inauthenticity that keeps Glorantha from exciting me. So I suppose what I mean by teenagery is that I get the overall sense that Glorantha was built by people who kept thinking of one cool thing after another and then just placed those things on the map. You know, the excitement and exuberance of youth but without logic or wisdom. Many would argue that 'it's a fantasy world - it shouldn't be logical', and that's fine, but my own preference is for a world that feels more earth-like. I don't know if that explains it very well, but the logic behind my initial comment isn't well formed in my mind.
I have no issues with the clash of cultures in Dragon Pass and I wonder that I might like 2nd age Glorantha better because I have to admit a certain fascination with the concept of the God Learners and the EWF.
Cobra
PS. I will make a point of going to Hill Hill Hill Hill next time I'm in Cumbria, just to say I've been there. Is it anything like Greenhillstairs near Moffat in Dumfrieshire?
ned-kogar said:
Yup. I recommend it for all. Having children makes a big difference for a tough adventurer type. When you live in a dangerous world, and have lots of enemies you have all the challenges, fears and hopes a parent in our world has, and many more as well.
The character who's a daddy got married with another player character after years or gaming and about half a decade of game time. The campaign is set in Shadow World, and by that time the characters had become really epic (not through D&D like Exp and levelling up, but through great magic, strange experiences and tenacity. Basically my character had become a young dragon, and his wife is basically a demigoddess.
At that stage our characters had huge potential, but not the skill to wield that power. A very powerful and crafty ally arranged to send us back in time (about 40.000 years) to a very different era for a hundread years, so we would have a chanse to learn to use our abilities. When we had found a place for ourselves in "the past" we fealt secure enough to have children.
A young firedragon (all true dragons can change to human form on Shadow World) and a demigoddess can't have children the normal way, but luckily Tekla was a nature magician even before getting the godpower. She researched and created a spell called "Tekla's Alchemical Wedding", and we did manage to create two children
And guess what. Even in such a high-fantasy setting having children was really neat, and gave the characters lots of joy and worry. At least we could arrange to have them in relative safety (in the past) so that they were competent thirty year old's by the time we returned to our own time with all our enemies...
As I said, I recommend marriage and children in RPG's. It's a great theme, and makes the characters that much more real.
If we're dealing with the evolution of language, a place like "Punkydoodles Corners" must surely be the linquistic equivalent of a three-headed sheep...
I find this interesting, when taken with other recent discussions about Glorantha.
On the one hand, people are saying it's too 'thrown together,' feeling like an example of how our games surely were when we were in college and high school. And then on the other hand, some people seem to feel that all this continued development -- which always seemed to me to be a more detailed retconning of the setting so it wasn't so piecemeal anymore -- is hurting the setting. I guess it's true: you can't please everyone all the time.
Personally, yes, I agree much of it sounds piecemeal and 'thrown together' for the sake of being cool. I also would submit to you that probably every single one of our own campaign worlds and games also first started out exactly like that. And that's all Glorantha is, really.
It's one guy's idea (and later supplemented by lots of other people) of what would be a really cool fantasy world to live in. He thought it would be cool to publish it, and over the next thrity years, he's been working to further define it as he sees fit.
Just like I'm sure none of our campaign worlds or games were ever perfect right out og the box, either.
SteveMND said:On the one hand, people are saying it's too 'thrown together,' feeling like an example of how our games surely were when we were in college and high school. And then on the other hand, some people seem to feel that all this continued development -- which always seemed to me to be a more detailed retconning of the setting so it wasn't so piecemeal anymore -- is hurting the setting. I guess it's true: you can't please everyone all the time.
Personally, yes, I agree much of it sounds piecemeal and 'thrown together' for the sake of being cool. I also would submit to you that probably every single one of our own campaign worlds and games also first started out exactly like that. And that's all Glorantha is, really.
It's one guy's idea (and later supplemented by lots of other people) of what would be a really cool fantasy world to live in. He thought it would be cool to publish it, and over the next thrity years, he's been working to further define it as he sees fit.
Just like I'm sure none of our campaign worlds or games were ever perfect right out og the box, either.
Nicely summarized. My own early adventures and settings were pretty juvenile. I once set an adventure in a village called Snotty Wrangler (no offence meant if there is such a village in the UK).
I would say, however, that from the standpoint of rhetoric - (not specifically speaking of Glorantha here) 'thrown together' and 'continually added to' are not really opposites - rather they can be complementary. Think of the former as the foundation and the latter as what's been added since. A good example of something that suffers from too much of both is a microsoft operating system.
Cobra
Heh, to be sure. In the first campaign I ever ran when I was a pre-teen, it was for my dad (he was a cool dad like that), and I ended up allowing him to become emperor of half of the entire Flanaess in the old AD&D campaign setting. We both had a lot of fun (which of course was the whole point), but, oh lordy, I'd never do the same sort of thing today!
Agreed. that's pretty much how I view Glorantha. I don't give it (or any other setting, really), any more leeway or grief than I would my own campaign setting, or my friend's, or the guy's down the hall. Just that some interest me more, that's all.
Man, I wanted to drop a crack here about Window's foundation being the Mac OS, but decided against it.
But Earth is an old world, and hasn't had any really serious upheavals lately. Glorantha is pretty young, especially if you consider that the Dragonkill obliterated most of the old civilisations, and the new era represented almost starting again from scratch. While the place names distribution has settled down now, there have certainly been periods in history when it was as cinfused as Glorantha. Even today British placenames are derived from P-celtic, Q-celtic, Latin, Germanic, Scandanavian and Romance roots. I don't think Glorantha is too bad!
For me Glorantha is not "bad" per se. There are many elements which are very well thought out. (like mythology, gods, magic)
But there are as many elements which I dont like. Eg. Names, Ducks, unrealistic and IMO immature cultural mix, (here you have knights and not far away you have native indians, here dwarfs, there some ducks, here undead and there the roman empire and over the hills you have some chinese...)
But there are as many elements which I dont like. Eg. Names, Ducks, unrealistic and IMO immature cultural mix, (here you have knights and not far away you have native indians, here dwarfs, there some ducks, here undead and there the roman empire and over the hills you have some chinese...)
homerjsinnott
Mongoose
Cobra said:SteveMND said:On the one hand, people are saying it's too 'thrown together,' feeling like an example of how our games surely were when we were in college and high school. And then on the other hand, some people seem to feel that all this continued development -- which always seemed to me to be a more detailed retconning of the setting so it wasn't so piecemeal anymore -- is hurting the setting. I guess it's true: you can't please everyone all the time.
It's one guy's idea (and later supplemented by lots of other people) of what would be a really cool fantasy world to live in. He thought it would be cool to publish it, and over the next thrity years, he's been working to further define it as he sees fit.
Just like I'm sure none of our campaign worlds or games were ever perfect right out og the box, either.
Nicely summarized. My own early adventures and settings were pretty juvenile. I once set an adventure in a village called Snotty Wrangler (no offence meant if there is such a village in the UK).
I would say, however, that from the standpoint of rhetoric - (not specifically speaking of Glorantha here) 'thrown together' and 'continually added to' are not really opposites - rather they can be complementary. Think of the former as the foundation and the latter as what's been added since. A good example of something that suffers from too much of both is a microsoft operating system.
Cobra
I really don't feel like most of it was thrown together, look at the East to West/Godless to Mystic aspect of the World to see what I mean.
Your own example of Snotty Wrangler is a good one of what I feel doesn't happen in Glorantha, there are jokes, but they don't feel pubescent.
You can find many examples of the non-diffusion of languages/ architecture/ ideas in the real world, one example is the Mezoamerican ziggurat/Pyramids/Stonehenge independence. A language anomaly, Basque for example or on a smaller level, Norman place names in Pre Norman Britain. Strange peoples, Darra Harappans (Indus Valley Civilization).Languages and cultures don't spread out slowly, gradually, in a uniform fashion, English a fantastic example of this. Look at the Norman Invasion, it completely realigned England economically and to a lesser degree culturally, yet linguistically it had a much lesser effect. Look at the spead of English culture and language in the last 2-3 centures and the massive effect it has now. If Languages and cultures spead out slowly and gradually we would all be speaking Chinese or Romance and dress like Mongols or Indians.
I have talked about the lack of space in Glorantha (it's a small world!) in other threads, perhaps this is an aspect of what you mean? Could you give some examples of your arguement to give me more insight?
I am not saying that Glorantha is a totally integrated world (nor would I want it to be), but I do think that it is more logical than many give it credit for.
Usually I think that the real world has been very badly thrown together, much moreso than any fantasy world.
Thanks, Ade.
homerjsinnott
Mongoose
kintire said:
Good reasoning, wish I had thought of that.
Not to mention Jewish place names.
homerjsinnott
Mongoose
Enpeze said:
Look at the New World in the 16th century.
Guns, Knights and Indians, oh my!
I agree that the cultures are too squashed together (but that's what you get for having a real world map projection that's rubbish) but change Km to miles and it all works out.
Check out this thread;
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17552&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Well, Ducks I'll give you. But I don't see so much of the names, and as for the cultural mix...
In the 400s Western Europe contained kingdoms ruled by Southern Europeans such as Romans and other Italians, Germanic peoples including the Franks, Goths, Alemanni and others, Western Steppe nomads like the Alans, Asiatic steppe nomads like the Huns, Celtic states like Britain, Brittany and Ireland, and random oddities related to no one like the Basques. In fact, never mind western Europe, all of these types could be found in France. Given how wierd the real world can be, I can handle Glorantha with no trouble!
kintire said:
What we have today culturally and ethnically may seem very hodge-podge we can trace the origins of it pretty reliably. I know a thimble-full about Gloranthan history but I'd say that in order for it to have a comfortable consistency we should be able to trace the origins of its present-day cultures with similar reliability.
Having said that, the deeply mythical basis of the world struggles against such efforts. Why expend a great effort on anthropology when physics and the earth sciences have already been cast out the window?
Well, we basically can. Not all of the peoples have had their histories written up, of course, but most have, to a greater or lesser extent.
For two reasons. First, physics and earth sciences have not been entirely thrown out of the window. Myth is mostly about the Old World, not the new. Since the dawn things have been much more mechanistic, although influences linger of course. Second, human nature has not been changed to any great degree, so anthropology is far more relevant than the physical sciences, which have.
For the cultural mix, one similar period in real history is the Hellenistic Age, right after the death of Alexander the Great. Every culture from Spain to the Indus mixing together. It has a good rpg treatment in the free on-line game Warlords of Alexander. Oh did I mention it uses BRP?
It's always seemed to me that Glorantha started that way, 30 years ago... but since then both Greg and others have been working away to give everything much more depth and realism. Despite popular impressions, it's very rare for any of these changes to actually contradict any of the earlier, simpler (or cruder) descriptions: it's been a case of "well, that's sort of true, but here's more detail" or "well, some people do see it like that, sure, but this is how others tell the story".Enpeze said:
So for example, the "knights" you complain about are mercenaries from the far West, settled on a land grant by a previous Emperor. Of course they're culturally out of place: they're meant to be. They're colonists in a strange and hostile land.
As for the "indians" I presume you mean the Grazelanders? Again, they're the offshoot of a more distant race, brought to the region to fight the Praxians, then defeated and forced to seek refuge in Dragon Pass (which, at the time, was empty of other humans). Once again, they're strangers in a strange land, struggling to preserve their ways as their former hunting grounds are encroached upon by the surrounding settled population.
The 'Chinese' (Kralori) aren't just over the hills, they're many months' journey in the remote East.
As for the others - well, part of the concept of Dragon Pass is that it's the one easily crossed route through the mountains that divide the continent in half - so of course it's a place where different cultures, races and empires meet, mingle and fight each other, and have done since before Time began. It doesn't mean that the whole of Glorantha is like that - this is an unusual area, and as such, the writers of RQ and HQ thought it was a good place to set their adventures...
Durand Durand
Banded Mongoose
Yeah. Wow.
After reading that I am reminded of the time I became illuminated at a Glorantha Con, hidden aspects of truth and all. The article would a a good one to use as a hidden scroll in some Lhankor Mhy temple, written by an illuminate, to give pause to some anti-Thed group.
DD
GbajiTheDeceiver
Mongoose
The Dragon Pass cultural situation was pretty unique. The area was depopulated up until a couple of hundred years before the 3rd age times we're most familiar with, so it's all immigrants from mostly neighbouring countries. Hence the clash and mixture.
