The more "Adult" aspects of RuneQuest/Glorantha...

[ned-kogar]

The sun, whoever he is, is GOOD for you, is VITAL to your survival, and your crops...it's a bit more hypocritical to say that Yelm is an enemy, but we actually need him, and he's a Good Guy.

Hoomanz got it wrong. Uz know da trooth. Heck, even da stoopidest trollkins knows dat Yelm-shmelm a Bad Guy.

Heh heh. Uz Know. Uz Know All.

Still, Wulf, I don't see why a culture can't have a Yelm or whoever as an important figure in their culture and myth without offering worship. It's not that pre-Elmali Orlanthi deny that Yelm exists - it's just that they consider him to be unworthy of their POW... He's still there, whether they worship him or not, cos Orlanth deigned to let him be there..

And there's no reason a religion shouldn't contain 'hypocrisy' is there?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Still, Wulf, I don't see why a culture can't have a Yelm or whoever as an important figure in their culture and myth without offering worship.

But Yelm DOES exist, and the Orlanthi DO acknowledge his existance, and they DO NOT worship him. They worship Elmal instead.

It's not that pre-Elmali Orlanthi deny that Yelm exists - it's just that they consider him to be unworthy of their POW... He's still there, whether they worship him or not, cos Orlanth deigned to let him be there..

There are no pre-Elmali Orlanthi, Elmal left Yelm's court for Orlanth's hall in the God Time, before time began. He has always been part of the Orlanthi pantheon. There are multiple sun Gods, but only Elmal is worthy of our worship, because the others are all outsiders' Gods.

Wulf

 

[ned-kogar]

There are no pre-Elmali Orlanthi, Elmal left Yelm's court for Orlanth's hall in the God Time, before time began. He has always been part of the Orlanthi pantheon. There are multiple sun Gods, but only Elmal is worthy of our worship, because the others are all outsiders' Gods.

By pre-Elmali I meant the Orlanthi as they were prior to the introduction of Elmal into Glorantha by The Stafford.

That's the sort of Glorantha I explore, as I like my cultures to have enough faith in their primary gods to not have to compromise and have a little bit of everything in their pantheon.. Keeps them more distinct, and playable, to my mind.

Fair do's to you, though. I'm glad you're enjoying another version.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

That's the sort of Glorantha I explore, as I like my cultures to have enough faith in their primary gods to not have to compromise and have a little bit of everything in their pantheon.. Keeps them more distinct, and playable, to my mind.

You see, that just doesn't sound realistic (for a primitive mythology value of reality...) to me. Sure, you can have good Gods that do good things for you, and enemy Gods that do bad things to you... but an enemy God that does good things for you? An enemy whom you rely on for life itself, ripening your crops, and keeping of the deathly grip of winter? Something badly wrong there...

Wulf

 

[atgxtg]

By pre-Elmali I meant the Orlanthi as they were prior to the introduction of Elmal into Glorantha by The Stafford.

That's the sort of Glorantha I explore, as I like my cultures to have enough faith in their primary gods to not have to compromise and have a little bit of everything in their pantheon.. Keeps them more distinct, and playable, to my mind.

Fair do's to you, though. I'm glad you're enjoying another version.

But that is really a monotheisitic viewpoint, rather than a polytheistic one. In polytheisitic cultures, the Gods were not condidered all powerful or onimpotent, and are known to have limits. On historical Earth, one reason why Christianity spread was that many polytheistic cultures could easily adopt a "new" God with new abilities.

With a pantheon things aren't as cut and dired as appears in mythology books either. Most of your "Father/Son" realtionships in ancient mythos (Odin/THor, Zeus/Apollo) orginally wre not set up that way, but were orginally rivial relgious that were merged into the modern form.


As far a Glorantha goes, the Lightbringers Quest shows just how important the Sun is to the Orlanthi culture. Sun worship maight be a rival faith, but an important one nonetheless.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

But that is really a monotheisitic viewpoint, rather than a polytheistic one.

With a pantheon things aren't as cut and dired as appears in mythology books either. Most of your "Father/Son" realtionships in ancient mythos (Odin/THor, Zeus/Apollo) orginally wre not set up that way, but were orginally rivial relgious that were merged into the modern form.

A tendancy taken to extremes by the Romans...

"Caesar, these barbarians worship a strange God!"
"No problem, explain how he's really Jove's long-lost brother, and we'd like to welcome him back to the family..."

Wulf

 

[ned-kogar]

But that is really a monotheisitic viewpoint, rather than a polytheistic one. In polytheisitic cultures, the Gods were not condidered all powerful or onimpotent, and are known to have limits. On historical Earth, one reason why Christianity spread was that many polytheistic cultures could easily adopt a "new" God with new abilities.

With a pantheon things aren't as cut and dired as appears in mythology books either. Most of your "Father/Son" realtionships in ancient mythos (Odin/THor, Zeus/Apollo) orginally wre not set up that way, but were orginally rivial relgious that were merged into the modern form.

It's not montheistic - I'm suggesting that there's enough range and functionailty in a basic Orlanthi / Lightbringer pantheon to accommodate most disasters.. and I'm not suggesting that in times of enormous upheaval a group would never propitiate an 'enemy' or 'outsider' god. I mean to emphasise divine allegiance, not inflexibility.

I do like the assimilative aspect of worship - Gloranthan humans are, after all, almost defined by their fickleness.. but I must repeat that not all pantheons have to inevitably contain a representative of each major element.

Gloranthan myth excites me when it poetically / symbolically captures a truth of the world. eg. Lightning Boy crashing from Sky to Air pantheon.

Elmal never quite convinced me in that way. Vinga, too.

*opens can of worms*

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Elmal never quite convinced me in that way. Vinga, too.

I've seen nothing to convince me that Vinga wasn't simply introduced from near-obscurity to high-profile as a 'get out of jail free' card for Greg after stopping anyone from running female Orlanthi. From being "the primary cult for male Orlanthi worship" in earier RuneQuest publications to "men only - women go worship Ernalda, and get cooking" in HeroQuest.

Wulf

 

[Darran]

But that is really a monotheisitic viewpoint, rather than a polytheistic one.

With a pantheon things aren't as cut and dired as appears in mythology books either. Most of your "Father/Son" realtionships in ancient mythos (Odin/THor, Zeus/Apollo) orginally wre not set up that way, but were orginally rivial relgious that were merged into the modern form.

A tendancy taken to extremes by the Romans...

"Caesar, these barbarians worship a strange God!"
"No problem, explain how he's really Jove's long-lost brother, and we'd like to welcome him back to the family..."

That is the Lunars way of operating as well! :twisted:

 

[Wulf Corbett]

"Caesar, these barbarians worship a strange God!"
"No problem, explain how he's really Jove's long-lost brother, and we'd like to welcome him back to the family..."

That is the Lunars way of operating as well! :twisted:

Of course: despite recent re-imaging, the two were one and the same in the original RuneQuest publications.

Wulf

 

[burdock]

Why are we talking about the sun??? I came here to find out about sex!!!

 

[homerjsinnott]

Why are we talking about the sun??? I came here to find out about sex!!!

We are just waiting for the sea and the sand...

 

[homerjsinnott]

Just a note, while Glorantha is Greg Stafford's idea, he is not the only one who has offically contributed to the world. So while people may hate being Gregged, (me, I've never encountered that problem with my players) let's continue to give the man a little respect, without him we might all be playing T&T or D&D :evil:

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Just a note, while Glorantha is Greg Stafford's idea, he is not the only one who has offically contributed to the world.

I give enormous credit to Greg as a creator. However, as a salesman and a games designer he leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. Constant retconning and rewriting of setting, while at the same time maintaining a continuous metaplot, is a very poor combination. Continuing to do both while producing nothing new is worse. Glorantha would have a worse reputation for change than D&D if it weren't for the fact it's a continuus flow of changes rather than the constant impending doom of yet another new edition...

Wulf

 

[SteveMND]

I give enormous credit to Greg as a creator. However, as a salesman and a games designer he leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. Constant retconning and rewriting of setting, while at the same time maintaining a continuous metaplot, is a very poor combination.

I think this just emphasizes the fact that Greg's first passion is not as a salesman or a game designer, but as an author and creative writer. In an increasing industry of "let's just publish what sells well," I find that refreshing and welcome.

Every campaign setting creator I've ever known or read about -- from myself and my extended circle of gamers to Gygax and Greenwood -- has changed things as time goes on. Indeed, Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms both started out as 'home campaigns' and evolved into the later corporate settings. I suspect a large number of other settings did as well.

I understand how some people want a static, unchanging setting they can base things off of, but honestly, I like the fact that there is always new stuff coming out, and that Greg is constantly refining his world (because when you get down to it, that's really who it belongs to, even if others have made great contributions to it over the years).

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I understand how some people want a static, unchanging setting they can base things off of, but honestly, I like the fact that there is always new stuff coming out, and that Greg is constantly refining his world (because when you get down to it, that's really who it belongs to, even if others have made great contributions to it over the years).

Paradoxically, that's one of the greatest problems I have with it... I have a growing feeling that, no matter how much I put into my game, no matter how much I may modify 'my' Glorantha, it will never be mine, I will never do more than look over Greg's shoulder and borrow his ideas. If he's leave the damn thing alone and let us all get on with playing the game, I could feel some connection to the world, but increasingly it's becoming just another world somebody else is running. And there's nothing more boring than listening to someone else's gaming stories.

Wulf

 

[SteveMND]

Paradoxically, that's one of the greatest problems I have with it... I have a growing feeling that, no matter how much I put into my game, no matter how much I may modify 'my' Glorantha, it will never be mine, I will never do more than look over Greg's shoulder and borrow his ideas.

Well, yeah. We're all doing that to some degree whenever we use any campaign setting. That's why so many of us prefer to create our own (and even then, we're almost assured of borrowing other ideas, whether we know it or not).

If he's leave the damn thing alone and let us all get on with playing the game, I could feel some connection to the world, but increasingly it's becoming just another world somebody else is running.

I think the trick here is know when to say "no." Something new come out? You don't have to use it. Glorantha becomes "finished" and "static" whenever you as the GM decides it does, by simply not having to add every little new thing in that comes out. If you want him to "leave the damn thing alone," simply stop incorporating everything new that comes out. Say "this is good as it is, and I like this, and will build off of this amount of source material," and be done with it.

Heck, there are lots of people that do that all the time with other campaigns and game systems; I don't see why it would have to any different here.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I think the trick here is know when to say "no." Something new come out? You don't have to use it. Glorantha becomes "finished" and "static" whenever you as the GM decides it does, by simply not having to add every little new thing in that comes out. If you want him to "leave the damn thing alone," simply stop incorporating everything new that comes out. Say "this is good as it is, and I like this, and will build off of this amount of source material," and be done with it.

I believe that's called living in denial...

Heck, there are lots of people that do that all the time with other campaigns and game systems; I don't see why it would have to any different here.

Because Glorantha was something great, something virtualy unequalled (Tribe8 comes damn close). But the important word here is 'was'. Now it's being drowned in excessive, pedantic detail, and retconning in unnecessary and over-intellectualised detail. It's like a novel that's been through too many pre-publication drafts and rewrites, and is losing all the initial promise and drive it once had. It doesn't mater how good the initial draft is if the published article doesn't work. It was more important, once. Now it's just another over-thick fantasy potboiler trilogy.

Wulf

 

[SteveMND]

I believe that's called living in denial...

Wait, what? Denial? So, are you saying that you have no choice but to incorporate every last bit of Gloranthan lore that comes out? You cannot show any self-restraint and say "You know, I personally don't care for this bit, and so I will decline to use it in my campaign?" That's somehow denial?

There are dozens -- nay, hundreds -- of books out there for the d20 system. Am I required to use each and every one in my d20 campaign? Of course not. None of us have to use anything that comes out for a setting or game system. If you like something, use it. If you don't, don't use it. Not rocket science here, folks.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Wait, what? Denial? So, are you saying that you have no choice but to incorporate every last bit of Gloranthan lore that comes out?

Specifically, that was aimed at the comment

Glorantha becomes "finished" and "static" whenever you as the GM decides it does, by simply not having to add every little new thing in that comes out.

And, yes, it is denial if you pretend a setting is static and finished when it's constantly being updated and changed. You're perfectly entitled to deny it, mind you, never said otherwise. But as you do so, things move on without you.

There are dozens -- nay, hundreds -- of books out there for the d20 system. Am I required to use each and every one in my d20 campaign? Of course not. None of us have to use anything that comes out for a setting or game system. If you like something, use it. If you don't, don't use it. Not rocket science here, folks.

Interesting. You reply directly to my comments, quote me, and address my post. But then call to the assembled audience with your closing comments. Like a Barrister calling to the jury as he breaks down the witness' evidence...

Wulf