Spaceships and spacecombat

[ZiCold]

Hi! I'm totally messed with this. Please, explain me how does it all work.
For example:
1. Why armour is so high? No missiles, no lasers can penetrate Gazelle with 8 points of armour and 1d6 sandcasters. It's stupid. And in the same time Corsair has 0 points of armour. wtf?
Additional: System Defence Bot has 15 points of armour. Is it joke?
Let all ships have armour and fights will never end despite of logic and reality. While in the same time a lot of ships has open bridges (I mean windows) and fuel scoops.

2. What does "15xPulse laser 10" mean? High Guard is so bad written, I cant understand all this weapon bays and mounts as damage too.

3. Missiles are useless, really. 1d6 points of damage, 2 (!) dice throws are required and still it can be destroyed by simple turret shot without any penalties (like no acting in the next turn while reaiming turret for the long distance).

I like space combat and try to understand it on the whole to play it as it was planned.

 

[Reynard]

Your stable of adventure class ships have zero to four points armor and the close escort is the exception because it was meant to hang around in a fight. A beam laser or a nuclear missile, if you're really gunning for escorts can beat escort armor. Traveller isn't about big numbers. A point here and there after armor starts doing serious damage over time. System Defense Boats are armored sharks meant to take on the heavier opponents. Pirates are just target practice.

I don't have my High Guard at hand but 15xPulse10 sound like a Pulse laser barrage and I'm sure that massed damage to get through armor 15. In the same vein, a barrage of missiles will overwhelm Point defense and do some serious scratches to bigger ships and that's at ranges beam weapons only wish for. Remember to if a ship fires missiles and follows them in, the target must decide whether to shoot the missiles or shoot the aggressor.

It can work.

 

[Jeraa]

Hi! I'm totally messed with this. Please, explain me how does it all work.
For example:
1. Why armour is so high? No missiles, no lasers can penetrate Gazelle with 8 points of armour and 1d6 sandcasters. It's stupid. And in the same time Corsair has 0 points of armour. wtf?
Additional: System Defence Bot has 15 points of armour. Is it joke?
Let all ships have armour and fights will never end despite of logic and reality. While in the same time a lot of ships has open bridges (I mean windows) and fuel scoops.

Well, lasers and missiles are not actually military weapons. They are civilian weapons. And while beam lasers* (1d6 damage) can't penetrate 8 points of armor, pulse lasers (2d6 damage) can. And no amount of armor can make you totally immune to actual military weapons - particle beam turrets (3d6 damage), fusion gun bays (5d6 damage), large particle beam bays (9d6 damage), and torpedoes (4d6 damage). Sure, armor can get high enough to negate the average damage some of these weapons can do, but it can't get high enough to negate all of the damage as armor is capped at 15 points.

*Also, the beam laser is not an offensive weapon. It is a defensive weapon. Its primary use is to shot down incoming missiles. The ability to damage ships with light or no armor is just an added benefit.

2. What does "15xPulse laser 10" mean? High Guard is so bad written, I cant understand all this weapon bays and mounts as damage too.

In this case, there should be another word in that one, either Single, Double, or Triple. It means the ship is mounting 15 Pulse Lasers with a Tech Level of 10.

So 10x Missile-Bay 9 means that the ship mounts 10 Tech Level 9 missile bays.

3. Missiles are useless, really. 1d6 points of damage, 2 (!) dice throws are required and still it can be destroyed by simple turret shot without any penalties (like no acting in the next turn while reaiming turret for the long distance).

Missiles were badly carried over from Classic Traveller. In CT, beam lasers did 1 hit, while missiles did 1d6 hits. Properly converted, the Mongoose Traveller beam laser does 1d6 damage, while the MGT missile should do 6d6 damage (or 1d6x1d6 damage).

 

[sideranautae]

dice throws are required and still it can be destroyed by simple turret shot without any penalties (like no acting in the next turn while reaiming turret for the long distance).

Space combat rounds are minutes long and the equipment is computer controlled. So, "re-aiming" takes small fractions of a second. They aren't using 18th century cannon after all.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

What's the matter? Players are upset that you gave them too much armor?

 

[Nerhesi]

Hi! I'm totally messed with this. Please, explain me how does it all work.
For example:
1. Why armour is so high? No missiles, no lasers can penetrate Gazelle with 8 points of armour and 1d6 sandcasters. It's stupid. And in the same time Corsair has 0 points of armour. wtf?

Armour isn't "so high". Generally, you should have some rules stipulating what amount is military vs civilian level. Just because you can mount a .50 cal on a BMW x3 and armor it up, doesn't mean you're allowed to. Generally, I limit civilian vehicles to 4 armor, and regular missiles, pulse lasers, and beam lasers. This means anything higher and you'd have to be a licensed merc or the navy. This makes sense from any government's perspective in that you would love to have all civilians/most criminals be unable to hurt your armed forces yet maintain some self defence. If we could do it today, we definitely would.

Also, you will note that "high armor" doesn't mean immunity when it comes to barrages.

Additional: System Defence Bot has 15 points of armour. Is it joke?
Let all ships have armour and fights will never end despite of logic and reality. While in the same time a lot of ships has open bridges (I mean windows) and fuel scoops.

Where does a system defence boat have 15 points of armor? It would have to be TL 15 and have bonded super dense.

Regardless, you will not that while armor is maxxed at 15 (TL level), the vast majority of weapons can do more than 15 and sometime a lot more. If you have 15 armor, you should definitely be military - at which point people are shooting at you with barrages, 4d6, 5d6, 6d6, 8d6, 9d6 and meson weaponry!!

2. What does "15xPulse laser 10" mean? High Guard is so bad written, I cant understand all this weapon bays and mounts as damage too.

Where is the example? I believe that is 15 pulse lasers at tech level 10? You need to give me the exact page #. High guard is difficult to understand but barrages are explained and re-explained in Trillion Credit squadron.

3. Missiles are useless, really. 1d6 points of damage, 2 (!) dice throws are required and still it can be destroyed by simple turret shot without any penalties (like no acting in the next turn while reaiming turret for the long distance).

Yes missiles are low-tech weapons in the age where people are shooting at you with near-light speed weaponry from 10,000 km away. Accept it. A missile is equivalent of a bow or whatever near-archaic weapon today.

You are forgetting that missiles can keep trying to hit again and again (smart missiles), and unlike weapons that could have severe penalties (-2 dodge, -1 evade software, -2 to -4 from range) a missile on a good gunnery roll will basically hit on a flat like 6 to 8 +

Also, there are torpedos, which pretty much completely blow away armor.

I like space combat and try to understand it on the whole to play it as it was planned.

Glad you do. I love space combat in this game too. The only modification I really make is that I allow the dodge negative modifier to be based on pilot skill, like how shooting is based on gunnery skill.

I really also like the fact that some ships can be completely immune to "low tech" or "civilian" weaponry. That is really a selling point at instilling fear and clearly identifying the order of things (aka dont get too cocky and try to take on the military or so).

 

[sideranautae]

I really also like the fact that some ships can be completely immune to "low tech" or "civilian" weaponry. That is really a selling point at instilling fear and clearly identifying the order of things (aka dont get too cocky and try to take on the military or so).

Good point this.

 

[ZiCold]

Your stable of adventure class ships have zero to four points armor and the close escort is the exception because it was meant to hang around in a fight. A beam laser or a nuclear missile, if you're really gunning for escorts can beat escort armor. Traveller isn't about big numbers. A point here and there after armor starts doing serious damage over time. System Defense Boats are armored sharks meant to take on the heavier opponents. Pirates are just target practice.

But I dont understand why both this ships are posted in core rulebook. For the first scenario I choose escort mission and I was dissappointed with this fact. And in the game process we've decided to low sand damage reduction to 1d3. Things than went smoothier.
From now I think I will make my own ships.

I don't have my High Guard at hand but 15xPulse10 sound like a Pulse laser barrage and I'm sure that massed damage to get through armor 15. In the same vein, a barrage of missiles will overwhelm Point defense and do some serious scratches to bigger ships and that's at ranges beam weapons only wish for. Remember to if a ship fires missiles and follows them in, the target must decide whether to shoot the missiles or shoot the aggressor.

I dont think that this is armor, cause it's more like number of weapons in bay. I dont understand what are u talking about missiles, cause lasers can shoot ships and incoming missiles simulateonasly according to the core rulebook.

 

[ZiCold]

Well, lasers and missiles are not actually military weapons. They are civilian weapons. And while beam lasers* (1d6 damage) can't penetrate 8 points of armor, pulse lasers (2d6 damage) can. And no amount of armor can make you totally immune to actual military weapons - particle beam turrets (3d6 damage), fusion gun bays (5d6 damage), large particle beam bays (9d6 damage), and torpedoes (4d6 damage). Sure, armor can get high enough to negate the average damage some of these weapons can do, but it can't get high enough to negate all of the damage as armor is capped at 15 points.

But Particle beam turrets, 50 ton fusion gun bay and large particle beam bays are Capital SHip Barrage weapons, but I'm talking about <800 tons ships and fights. Anyway I see now barbettes in High Guard Book.

*Also, the beam laser is not an offensive weapon. It is a defensive weapon. Its primary use is to shot down incoming missiles. The ability to damage ships with light or no armor is just an added benefit.

It's interesting to know where did u get this opinion. In the same way we can say that missiles are fireworks = )

In this case, there should be another word in that one, either Single, Double, or Triple. It means the ship is mounting 15 Pulse Lasers with a Tech Level of 10.

So 10x Missile-Bay 9 means that the ship mounts 10 Tech Level 9 missile bays.

Thank you! I want to know on what page I can read about it in High Guard.

Missiles were badly carried over from Classic Traveller. In CT, beam lasers did 1 hit, while missiles did 1d6 hits. Properly converted, the Mongoose Traveller beam laser does 1d6 damage, while the MGT missile should do 6d6 damage (or 1d6x1d6 damage).

And so what is the best way to rule them? Or just it's better to use torpedoes and dotn ever think about missiles?)

 

[ZiCold]

Space combat rounds are minutes long and the equipment is computer controlled. So, "re-aiming" takes small fractions of a second. They aren't using 18th century cannon after all.

In this way we can say that ship's crew is useless and players actions doesnt matter. And therefore we should process space combat in auto-mode. I dont think that this is right, cause RPG is for people not for system.

 

[ZiCold]

What's the matter? Players are upset that you gave them too much armor?

They think that fights should be interesting. So they agreed to low sandcasters damage reduction to 1d3.

 

[Reynard]

"But I dont understand why both this ships are posted in core rulebook. For the first scenario I choose escort mission and I was dissappointed with this fact. And in the game process we've decided to low sand damage reduction to 1d3. Things than went smoothier.
From now I think I will make my own ships."

Where do you see a SDB in the Core book? The Close Escort has always been part of the typical ships seen in system encounters. You don't HAVE to fight them but you may encounter them for whatever the scenario reason. SDBs, when a referee included them for their scenario needs, are similar to the scene use as an escort but usually there is something bigger happening if they get involved. A big, powerful ship in an encounter is usually a plot device or a way the referee makes a point to the players. By the way, yes, make your own ships and, yes, go modify them if you wish. For the rest of us, the system works.

"I dont think that this is armor, cause it's more like number of weapons in bay. I dont understand what are u talking about missiles, cause lasers can shoot ships and incoming missiles simulateonasly according to the core rulebook."

You need to read the rules carefully before you complain the rules don't work. There's a lot of that on this forum. Quite clearly on page 147 under Firing Beam Weapons: "A gunner may fire any or all of the weapons in his turret or bay but each turret or bay may only fire once per round." That means if you use that turret as anti-ship it is not available for point defense. It's that simple. It seems the turret still can fire missiles as a following step in the Combat Phase.

 

[ZiCold]

Armour isn't "so high". Generally, you should have some rules stipulating what amount is military vs civilian level. Just because you can mount a .50 cal on a BMW x3 and armor it up, doesn't mean you're allowed to. Generally, I limit civilian vehicles to 4 armor, and regular missiles, pulse lasers, and beam lasers. This means anything higher and you'd have to be a licensed merc or the navy. This makes sense from any government's perspective in that you would love to have all civilians/most criminals be unable to hurt your armed forces yet maintain some self defence. If we could do it today, we definitely would.

Also, you will note that "high armor" doesn't mean immunity when it comes to barrages.

In my adventure I wanted to make interesting fight between escort military ship and pirate ship. So I wanted some normal military weapons, not core rulebook s--t. I'm sorry, I'm now upset with quality of this book cause anything requires supplements for normal game.
I dont understand what the point to make Gazelle Close Escort with 8 armor and civilian weapons.

Where does a system defence boat have 15 points of armor? It would have to be TL 15 and have bonded super dense.

Regardless, you will not that while armor is maxxed at 15 (TL level), the vast majority of weapons can do more than 15 and sometime a lot more. If you have 15 armor, you should definitely be military - at which point people are shooting at you with barrages, 4d6, 5d6, 6d6, 8d6, 9d6 and meson weaponry!!

I'm sorry but what does barrages mean? 15xMissles 9 has 15d6 damage?

Where is the example? I believe that is 15 pulse lasers at tech level 10? You need to give me the exact page #. High guard is difficult to understand but barrages are explained and re-explained in Trillion Credit squadron.

Almost all ships in the High Guard has this abbreviations. For example, page 127, Light Carrier, weapons:
40 x Triple Particle Beam-11
120 x Triple beam Laser10

Yes missiles are low-tech weapons in the age where people are shooting at you with near-light speed weaponry from 10,000 km away. Accept it. A missile is equivalent of a bow or whatever near-archaic weapon today.

You are forgetting that missiles can keep trying to hit again and again (smart missiles), and unlike weapons that could have severe penalties (-2 dodge, -1 evade software, -2 to -4 from range) a missile on a good gunnery roll will basically hit on a flat like 6 to 8 +

Also, there are torpedos, which pretty much completely blow away armor.

Thx for explaining this to me. I used to missiles in the games (like EVE Online) and I didnt think that it's low-tech in Traveller.

Glad you do. I love space combat in this game too. The only modification I really make is that I allow the dodge negative modifier to be based on pilot skill, like how shooting is based on gunnery skill.

I really also like the fact that some ships can be completely immune to "low tech" or "civilian" weaponry. That is really a selling point at instilling fear and clearly identifying the order of things (aka dont get too cocky and try to take on the military or so).

I'm glad to hear it and I like your home rule. I think that I will include it in my long list of homerules = )

Ok, I will use High Guard and I will try to make proper and interesting ships and fights. Thank you for your time!

 

[Jeraa]

But Particle beam turrets, 50 ton fusion gun bay and large particle beam bays are Capital SHip Barrage weapons, but I'm talking about <800 tons ships and fights. Anyway I see now barbettes in High Guard Book.

Particle Beam turrets and fusion gun bays appear in the Core Rulebook, which doesn't have barrage combat. Any ship can mount those, not just capital ships. For example, High Guard has a 70 ton small craft mounting a 50 ton missile bay (though using the rules for High Tech weapons to reduce the size to only 30 tons).

*Also, the beam laser is not an offensive weapon. It is a defensive weapon. Its primary use is to shot down incoming missiles. The ability to damage ships with light or no armor is just an added benefit.

It's interesting to know where did u get this opinion. In the same way we can say that missiles are fireworks = )

That is something that may not be said in Mongoose Traveller. But at one time, only beam lasers (not pulse lasers) could be used to shoot down incoming missiles. At least one Traveller Version (Traveller 20) specifically says they are defensive weapons. And in MGT, you can see that beam lasers don't do enough damage to damage even a lightly armored ship. That would relegate it to a defensive weapon, dedicated to shooting down missiles or used against unarmored ships.

 

[ZiCold]

Where do you see a SDB in the Core book? The Close Escort has always been part of the typical ships seen in system encounters. You don't HAVE to fight them but you may encounter them for whatever the scenario reason. SDBs, when a referee included them for their scenario needs, are similar to the scene use as an escort but usually there is something bigger happening if they get involved. A big, powerful ship in an encounter is usually a plot device or a way the referee makes a point to the players. By the way, yes, make your own ships and, yes, go modify them if you wish. For the rest of us, the system works.

First: I dont know what SDB means.
Second: You are rude by saying "For the rest of us" and your post is not the answer or help for me cause I'm newbie here and in this system.
Third: I think that core rulebook is supposed to be good reference for making simple adventures and encounters. Both on the ground and in space. But it's not.

You need to read the rules carefully before you complain the rules don't work. There's a lot of that on this forum. Quite clearly on page 147 under Firing Beam Weapons: "A gunner may fire any or all of the weapons in his turret or bay but each turret or bay may only fire once per round." That means if you use that turret as anti-ship it is not available for point defense. It's that simple. It seems the turret still can fire missiles as a following step in the Combat Phase.

Oh, ok, I didnt notice this. This are the penalties of which I was talking earlier.

 

[ZiCold]

Particle Beam turrets and fusion gun bays appear in the Core Rulebook, which doesn't have barrage combat. Any ship can mount those, not just capital ships. For example, High Guard has a 70 ton small craft mounting a 50 ton missile bay (though using the rules for High Tech weapons to reduce the size to only 30 tons).

Thx, I will read Core Rulebook more carefully. I didnt expect that I must make my own ships to make things work right.

That is something that may not be said in Mongoose Traveller. But at one time, only beam lasers (not pulse lasers) could be used to shoot down incoming missiles. At least one Traveller Version (Traveller 20) specifically says they are defensive weapons. And in MGT, you can see that beam lasers don't do enough damage to damage even a lightly armored ship. That would relegate it to a defensive weapon, dedicated to shooting down missiles or used against unarmored ships.

Ok, but it's not answer to question "why does missiles have the same damage as beam lasers". But as said by Nerhesi missiles are considered to be low-tech missiles what I didnt know.

 

[ZiCold]

Anyway I want to see any theme where I can post my question about rules.
For example, how to play medic help in the heat of battle (I mean attacks of opportunity in terms of DnD) and is it worth it ?

 

[AndrewW]

Almost all ships in the High Guard has this abbreviations. For example, page 127, Light Carrier, weapons:
40 x Triple Particle Beam-11
120 x Triple beam Laser10

That's the number of those turrets, in this case it indicates the ship has 40 Triple Particle Beam turrets (though not now you can only have 1 Particle Beam per turret, though it does need to be a triple turret) and 120 Triple Beam Laser turrets. The last number indicates the TL.

First: I dont know what SDB means.

System Defence Boat.

 

[Reynard]

"But Particle beam turrets, 50 ton fusion gun bay and large particle beam bays are Capital SHip Barrage weapons, but I'm talking about <800 tons ships and fights. Anyway I see now barbettes in High Guard Book.?"

Those weapons are included in the Core book because they can be physically mounted onto hardpoints of less than capital class size. I'm sure someone is designing adventure munchkin class ships with full armor and those weapons and saying that's normal. Look at all the examples of the adventure level ships and high armor is almost a myth. So are the armaments. Even the fighter and mercenary cruiser in the Core have low armor. Unless your players are part of a military campaign, arms and armor are low until they start modifying their starting vessels and I really want to hear the explanation how they 'acquired' that military grade barbette or 50 ton bay even though they can be mounted at a hardpoint.

Jeraa: "*Also, the beam laser is not an offensive weapon. It is a defensive weapon. Its primary use is to shot down incoming missiles. The ability to damage ships with light or no armor is just an added benefit."

"It's interesting to know where did u get this opinion. In the same way we can say that missiles are fireworks = )"

Very true. A turret beam weapon is still an offensive anti-ship weapon as well as defensive. Only high armored military vessels will consider one or two lasers or missiles unoffensive.

"Thank you! I want to know on what page I can read about it in High Guard."

To clarify for everyone, HG page 74: "(Number of dice)-(Weapon type)- Range- (Individual Weapon Damage in Dice). The weapon type is all beam lasers in that barrage group or all 50 ton meson bays. You don't mention 'bay' because that is reflected in the Damage dice.

"And so what is the best way to rule them? Or just it's better to use torpedoes and dotn ever think about missiles?"

I'd say there would be something very wrong if eligible adventure class ships use so much space to carry military grade torpedoes and 50 ton bays! There's nothing wrong with the rules as long as people stop wanting to munchkin them with space Vorpal Blades and Adamantine Armor.

 

[Reynard]

"First: I dont know what SDB means."

As you brought up, System Defense Boat.

"Second: You are rude by saying "For the rest of us" and your post is not the answer or help for me cause I'm newbie here and in this system."

Rude? You were getting very agitated and saying how the rules are wrong and you will change the rules to suit you. I said 'the rest of us" will use the rules as is because they work.

"Third: I think that core rulebook is supposed to be good reference for making simple adventures and encounters. Both on the ground and in space. But it's not."

For "the rest of us", we beg to differ. Try running with the rules as is without a preconceived notion of their worth since you have stated you are very new to the game. They do work.