Spaceships and spacecombat

[locarno24]

For some reason I don't think that the designer had it in mind that a 500T ship with triple P-laser turrets will make 15 attack rolls a round... Hmm...

To be honest, once you get to a ship like that, I'd be firing it as a 30-Pulse Laser-Short-2 barrage if concentrating on a single target....

Depends on the situation. If firing a single turret with the same weapons in each mount at a single target, one roll to hit is faster. However, for stuff like point defence or mixed turrets where the difficulty is changing shot on shot, obviously you need to roll a weapon at a time.

 

[Reynard]

If your little puddle jumper adventure ship encounters an opponent who needs to use the barrage rule you either run or give up.

Looking over the iconic adventure ships, I see very little that demands the need for one turret one roll. Every ship starts with no weapons or few, often less than the turret (normally double) capacity. If there is a missile launcher in the mix, that doesn't fire when the other weapons do.

I can only see the need for one turret one roll if the game is dragging and needs to speed up the combat encounter or you have a lot of ships in the conflict, otherwise, individual rolls are easy enough. Remember there's no mention anywhere that turret weapons are on a linked system and barrage doesn't represent linked weapons but a mass of similar weapon fire.

 

[sideranautae]

For some reason I don't think that the designer had it in mind that a 500T ship with triple P-laser turrets will make 15 attack rolls a round... Hmm...

To be honest, once you get to a ship like that, I'd be firing it as a 30-Pulse Laser-Short-2 barrage if concentrating on a single target....

I understand that is what you'd do. But, it isn't what the game designers intended. HG barrage combat wasn't designed for single 500 ton ships.

 

[Nerhesi]

Actually - it was most definitely designed to support it. It is explicit that barrages are allowed by as little as 5 of the same weapon.

This is further supported due to existence of gunboats, and 1kton or smaller craft that have many of the same turrets that came out after High Guard. The fact that barrages and non-barrage attacks are completely seemless is also a testament to this design.

A barrage is really nothing more than a set of instructions a different firing/attack pattern or algorithm over a 1-6 minute period

 

[sideranautae]

Actually - it was most definitely designed to support it. It is explicit that barrages are allowed by as little as 5 of the same weapon.

I am talking NUMBER of combatants. The barrage rules were NOT made to handle SINGLE ship combat between small ships. It was designed to deal with large scale (many ship and or huge amounts of weapons) It wasn't intended for two small ships fighting each other. No one can honestly claim that.

 

[Nerhesi]

I dont know if anyone can claim the opposite or what you're saying though..

Why can it not handle 2 ships fighting eachother? You can have barrages between 2kton ships without problem... whats the big diff between that and 300-700 tons for example?

 

[Jeraa]

I dont know if anyone can claim the opposite or what you're saying though..

Why can it not handle 2 ships fighting eachother? You can have barrages between 2kton ships without problem... whats the big diff between that and 300-700 tons for example?

While all the examples and rules are talking about large ships, 50-weapon batteries, or flights of small craft, the table for barrage damage does show 5 and 10-dice barrages.

The barrage rules totally support 2 500 ton ships blasting each other. Even if they were written for mainly capital ships to use, nothing would change if used by 2 smaller ships.

 

[Reynard]

I guess the major point is what is a gaming group's threshold for number of dice per ship to make an abstracted barrage roll more efficient as opposed to witnessing each gun's individual achievement in the action. A little more personal when some miss and others carry the day.

I can see the use for both systems and it is definitely subjective.

 

[ZiCold]

Short set of points:
1) As noted, a beam laser is effectively a ship's .50 cal. It's there to shoot down missiles, fighters and other small craft. It struggles to hurt a starship with even a single layer of crystaliron armour. This is intentional.

2) The pulse laser is a civilian six-pounder. It can hurt starships, but it's innacurate - and it allows you to put a few vaguely threatening weapons in your turret mounts that can still fire at missiles if you need them to.

3) Any weapon can only fire once per turn. So meaningful point defence needs a lot of lasers.

4) The advantage of missiles is that they don't suffer any real accuracy penalties when firing from distant range; you just have to wait a quarter hour or so for the missile spread to arrive. You don't lose the missile if you screw up the first dice roll, remember, it just makes the 'to hit' roll harder. Also, bear in mind smart missiles, which always hit on an 8+ and keep coming back for another try until shot down or out of fuel... Also, the DM-2 to hit from dodging is only for beam weapons, not missiles.

5) I'm not a fan of sandcasters - but remember you have to fire sand (and hit with it) for it to have an effect. So it's not a 'shield' but a 'buckler' - it's actively parrying incoming fire.

6) Yes, a gazelle is pretty much immune to lasers and missiles. Gazelles are meant to be 'Oh ****!" contacts that lead to the players running like buggery for the jump limit/orbital terminator/atmosphere.

7) If intending to shoot at proper warships (silly people!) then particle weaponry at a minimum is pretty much a prerequisite. Particle Barbettes are nice efficient antiship guns, but a pop-up triple turret with a single particle beam in it is concealable, which allows you to pretend to be a harmless civilian in normal situations.

8 ) If a ship has a beam laser/sandcaster turret (a pretty common fit) then it is not intended to attack another ship with it. That's purely a defensive armament, because - as you noted - a beam laser can't hurt a ship through sand clouds, so two ships with such turrets can sit their pounding on one another indefinitely (or at least for two hourse before they run out of sand!) without inflicting damage.

9) Generic missiles are indeed a bit poo. Nukes are not bad and there are variant missiles which are a lot scarier. Jumpbreaker missiles (Scoundrel, I think?) can prevent a target jumping away. Multiwarhead missiles are no more effective against armoured foes but work like a sawn-off against unarmoured targets - on average hitting harder than a nuke on a target with 0 armour. If you don't like sandcasters, look at sandcutter missiles, too; one hit from them prevents the target using sandcasters, at which point you can blow him to dust bunnies with beam weapon fire.

10) Barrage combat is a nice simplification for big ships pounding on each other. You don't need to really look at it for light ships firing popguns at each other. If the players manage to attract the attention of a flock of 10+ fighters chasing them it might be worth using for speed of rolling.

11) The Gazelle in the core rulebook, when operating as a navy ship, generally turns up with nuclear missiles in its racks.

12) No-one is expecting you to make your own ships to make the game work. However, if the crew of a trader wish to engage in a little light piratical japery, they would be well advised to have one of their turrets dismounted and replaced with particle artillery. That's not a new class of ship, it's the equivalent of someone saying "I intend to get into gunfights now and then, I think I'll buy an UZI". A ship with only pulse or beam lasers is perfectly capable of threatening merchants, but something bigger is needed to hit light warships.

1. I understand it now. I've read your threads with spaceships combat and I saw how beam/pulse was used.

2. Therefore should I use High Guard rules and use pulse lasers as 2d6 with -2 DM to hit?

3. It was my mistake when I make spaceship combat first time. Now I know how it play right.

4. So there are no roll when u r launching smart missiles. And according to core rules u can dodge in a round when missile will arrive.

5. I dont like sandcasters too and I think that 1d6 damage mitigation is high for "civilian" weapons and too low for normal military weapons.

6. I didnt understand 2nd part of sentence = )

7. I will take it into account when I will run piracy campaign )

8. I didnt know it. And again I'm pretty sad that ships with design like this are showed in core rulebook. They are all useless for both GMs and players -_-

9. Nice, but I need than all this supplies ) At this moment I'm trying to make good spaceship fight for my players using CoreRulebook and High Guard.

12. You mean modifications of standard designs, I see.

To sum up, do u know where I can see good designs of 200-800 tons ships to make a good balanced (ok, may be favor to players) spaceship fight ?

 

[Nerhesi]

To answer your Sum-up questions?

What are you players going to be fighting? other traders/civilians? Or is this a more military/blackops/special deniable government forces sort of campaign where they will be up against 12+ armor?

 

[Galadrion]

@ZiCold, Nerhasi -

If your opposition force (OpFor) is primarily civilian, then the current designs will work. A Beowulf is actually a pretty well-designed civilian vehicle for taking on other civilians, once you arm it - an armor of 4 will blunt most civilian-level attacks pretty well. (Any 1D weapon hits will either bounce with no real damage - a 50% chance - or will be limited to a single hit of damage, and if you've got a competent engineer aboard, he should be able to handle that level of damage control.)

If you're going up against heavier metal, you would be smart to be in a better combat ship yourself. Intelligent people do NOT tackle warships when they are in converted civilian boats - not unless all their alternatives are worse. (And if you're in a worse situation that THAT, there's something drastically wrong with your planning!)

Note that there ARE alternative armaments between beam/pulse lasers and particle bays. Even in the core rulebook, there is the turret-mounted particle beam (3D6 damage, good out to long range, and inflicts a crew radiation hit as well as the rolled damage, but - if you're using the High Guard errata - it takes up all three "slots" in a triple turret). High Guard adds the railgun, torpedo, and particle beam barbettes - these take up 5 additional tons each over a turret, but also hit considerably harder. Personally, I think the magazine space needed for the torpedo, or even the railgun, is a bit more than a cargo-carrying ship can afford, but sparing an additional five tons of cargo room in order to squeeze in a 4D6 particle-beam weapon (again, with a free crew radiation hit!) makes sense for a free trader who expects to occasionally mix it up with quasi-military opposition. And Trillion Credit Squadron gives us the plasma gun (2D6+4 damage and medium range, but one of them takes up two turret slots or you can fit a pair of them into a triple turret) and the plasma barbette (3D6+5 damage and the same medium range, but it takes up 5 tons and a hardpoint). All of these are good choices for a belligerent free trader who's inclined to fight to keep his cargo, a free-enterprise commerce raider, or a light anti-piracy patrol craft. (A Gazelle armed with a couple of plasma gun turrets and a couple of point-defense turrets is going to make for some nasty opposition for a Corsair or two! A squadron of them could probably give pause to even a kiloton-range opponent.)

 

[Nerhesi]

IMTU/OTU I do not think the Imperium allows your average free trader to mount Particle or Plasma weaponry.

In Central Supply Catalogue it defines Categories for all gear and civilian pretty much stops at lasers and regular missiles. Ship scale nuclear weapons, particle weaponry, etc is defined at above even basic military.

Which as I've mentioned before makes perfect sense. As the Imperium, I'd allow anyone to go about doing their business with Max 4 armor (or 6 or whatever), and pulse lasers/beam lasers/regular missiles. I would reserve any weapon that does more than 2d6 any heavy armor is military/licensed merc only.

Saying that, should you be playing in that sort of campaign then there aren't really many standard designs - and that makes sense. Its not a standard consumer object/often bought ship. I'd do up a few designs and allow my players to choose, or upgrade over the course of the adventure.

 

[sideranautae]

IMTU/OTU I do not think the Imperium allows your average free trader to mount Particle or Plasma weaponry.

The ONLY Imperial edict is on nuc weapons. NOT on other weapon types. House rules not withstanding.

 

[Reynard]

Tis true Mongoose doesn't have weapon restrictions in it's rules except for nuclear missiles and that's only for 3I campaigns. So weird when there are other weapons doing more damage and also have radiation.

Unless you're in the Pirates of Drinax campaign or munchkining a MTU campaign, the real limiting factors toward more deadly ship weapons and armor should be cost and space. Then again, if traders have the money for BFGs and thick skins then opposition should too if cash is that easy to come by.

If we're talking military campaigns then all bets and restrictions are off. Adventure ships need not apply because the adults are playing and they play rough.

The Gazelle and most SDBs are the middle of the road in campaigns, too small to face real warships individually and pretty much a plot device against everyone else.

 

[sideranautae]

Tis true Mongoose doesn't have weapon restrictions in it's rules except for nuclear missiles and that's only for 3I campaigns. So weird when there are other weapons doing more damage and also have radiation.

Yes. So true.

 

[Nerhesi]

Tis true Mongoose doesn't have weapon restrictions in it's rules except for nuclear missiles and that's only for 3I campaigns. So weird when there are other weapons doing more damage and also have radiation.

Yes. So true.

IMTU/OTU I do not think the Imperium allows your average free trader to mount Particle or Plasma weaponry.

The ONLY Imperial edict is on nuc weapons. NOT on other weapon types. House rules not withstanding.

Uhm.. so... Not True.
Mongoose DOES have restrictions on weapons as I have mentioned earlier and it DOES reference the Imperium- Category 1 to Category 5 permit system, page 21-22 in the Supplement 4 : Central Supply Catalogue.

So I do not copy straight out the book, I will give an abridged version:

Cat 1 and Cat 2 are basically unrestricted and civilian arms.
Cat 3 is Paramilitary which includes All Discharged Imperial Services Individuals , and people working for a corporation, starship, port authority etc..

Cat 4 and Cat 5, which is basically then off-limits (as most players in a free-trader game will be Cat 2 or Cat 3) includes the following:

Cat 4: Gauss Weapons, ACRs, Armoured Cars, etc..
Cat 5: Plasma, Fusion, Battledress, etc...

Prohibited: This is a category that is even above Cat 5, Nuclear weapons, patricle and meson weapons on spacecraft etc etc..

 

[sideranautae]

Uhm.. so... Not True.

I'm referring to turret & bay weapons on ships. What you just referenced highlights the insanity even more so though. I can have turret weapons that can lay waste to a town but I can't have personal Combat armor. :lol: :roll:

 

[phavoc]

Uhm.. so... Not True.
Mongoose DOES have restrictions on weapons as I have mentioned earlier and it DOES reference the Imperium- Category 1 to Category 5 permit system, page 21-22 in the Supplement 4 : Central Supply Catalogue.

So I do not copy straight out the book, I will give an abridged version:

Cat 1 and Cat 2 are basically unrestricted and civilian arms.
Cat 3 is Paramilitary which includes All Discharged Imperial Services Individuals , and people working for a corporation, starship, port authority etc..

Cat 4 and Cat 5, which is basically then off-limits (as most players in a free-trader game will be Cat 2 or Cat 3) includes the following:

Cat 4: Gauss Weapons, ACRs, Armoured Cars, etc..
Cat 5: Plasma, Fusion, Battledress, etc...

Prohibited: This is a category that is even above Cat 5, Nuclear weapons, patricle and meson weapons on spacecraft etc etc..

There have always been ways for players to legally, or illlegally, acquire more powerful gear. As CSC mentions, the enforcement of the rules is complicated. The Imperium itself keeps a strict eye out on mass killing type of weaponry (chemical, biological, nuclear), but the rest is allowed. If a player had a letter of marque from a planetary government they could be classified as auxillary naval vessel and thus have particle weaponry. If they had the backing of a mega-corp, or even a contract with a planet, they could be in possession of military-grade gear since they would be classified as mercs.

To be more specific about the categories, all it takes is to be considered a mercenary company (or ex-military) and you could legally have access to Category 4 weaponry (which includes gauss rifles and combat armor and G-carriers). Category 5 requires a mercenary permit, OR you can purchase the equipment as a merchant for resale elsewhere (the "elsewhere" is where your permit is checked, so that really isn't a heavy burden to overcome). This is where you need your paperwork in order if you plan on keeping your battledress, combat robot or fusion/plasma weaponry on you.

Prohibited weapons would be particle weapons, meson weapons (both for ship-based weapons), any nuclear or anti-matter weapon, or "large scale" EMP weapons. Though there doesn't seem to be any prohibition listed for defensive items like radiation shielding or meson screens. I suppose this might be considered an oversight since CSC doesn't deal with ship-borne equipment.

 

[Nerhesi]

Uhm.. so... Not True.

I'm referring to turret & bay weapons on ships. What you just referenced highlights the insanity even more so though. I can have turret weapons that can lay waste to a town but I can't have personal Combat armor. :lol: :roll:

The Category rules refer to weapons both personal and ship weapons (with some very explicit examples) - they also cover everything from sidearms to vehicles, battle dress and armor.

For example:

Category 5 - which is Restricted Military available only to accredited merc units (so not even a new pc merc unit) includes:

Plasma and Fusion Weapons.

So, the best the PCs can hope for, after becoming accredited mercs, is Plasma and Fusion (on their ships or slung over their backs).

Prohibited Items
Some items are subject to a blanket prohibition. ... In the Imperium, even governments are subject to these laws and must account for all prohibited items.The Imperial Bureaucracy conducts random audits to ensure compliance.

Examples:
Nuclear weapons.
Antimatter power systems.
Chemical and Biological weapons other than non-lethals
(tranquilisers and tear gas).
Starship-grade meson guns and particle accelerators.
Electromagnetic Pulse weaponry capable of large-scale effects.

Tada! No Particle, Nuclear, Meson weaponry. And until youre an accredited merc, no fusion or plasma weaponry (or Rail guns, etc etc) either.

So, as stated earlier, you're back to 1d6/2d6 beam and pulse lasers as a free trader.

 

[sideranautae]

The Category rules refer to weapons both personal and ship weapons (with some very explicit examples) - they also cover everything from sidearms to vehicles, battle dress and armor.

For example:

Category 5 - which is Restricted Military available only to accredited merc units (so not even a new pc merc unit) includes:

Plasma and Fusion Weapons.

The cat 5 weapons are personal only. The later part covers which ship weapons.

Which is STILL nuts as I can have what i needed to lay waste to a town but cannot have combat armor. Probably why this didn't exist before MGT. It is a bit cockeyed.