Spaceships and spacecombat

[sideranautae]

In this way we can say that ship's crew is useless and players actions doesn't matter.

No. Just because Trav ships don't use 18th century cannons and the turrets are moved by motor and computer doesn't mean there is no need for skilled Weapon system personnel to operate the systems. JUST like our weapon systems on modern naval ships.

You need to SLOW down. Read the replies AND the rules and not fly off the handle with unsupported conclusions.

 

[Reynard]

"For example, how to play medic help in the heat of battle (I mean attacks of opportunity in terms of DnD) and is it worth it ?"

That seems like two different questions. Medic in combat id Core page 56 Medic - First Aid and page 72 Injury and Recovery. Is First Aid in combat worth it? YES!!

Which reminds me, I don't know if our crew has a medic. The aslan doesn't want to keep waking from cold sleep every time she gets injured in battle.

As to the other part, the concept of attack of opportunity was once a part of Classic Traveller's Snapshot system which was a board game extension of the regular game. There is no AoO in Traveller, you attack or react to an attack with a Dodge or Parry. There is no special interrupt action in a threat zone.

 

[phavoc]

First: I dont know what SDB means.
Second: You are rude by saying "For the rest of us" and your post is not the answer or help for me cause I'm newbie here and in this system.
Third: I think that core rulebook is supposed to be good reference for making simple adventures and encounters. Both on the ground and in space. But it's not.

Traveller first appeared in the late 70s. It has a long and deep history. That's not an excuse, just background for you.

The ships and rules you are seeing are drawn from the original rules. Unlike D&D (which has had significant rule changes over the decades) Traveller has essentially stayed the same with each new set of rules. Mongoose is one of the later iterations of the classic rules. The Core rulebook is the starter set for Traveller. It has all the necessary rules you need to start gaming, along with ships and weapons and equipment. There are supplements to the rules like every other gaming system out there.

And, like every other game system, the supplements add more complexity and depth to the game. If you are using Core rules then you don't need High Guard or Mercenary or Central Supply Catalog or anything else. But, if you want to expand, then it becomes necessary to read the new rules and to incorporate them into your gaming sessions.

The board can be a useful place to get answers as well as get up to speed on things. Having some knowledge of naval and ground combat and terminologies helps as well.

 

[locarno24]

Short set of points:

1) As noted, a beam laser is effectively a ship's .50 cal. It's there to shoot down missiles, fighters and other small craft. It struggles to hurt a starship with even a single layer of crystaliron armour. This is intentional.

2) The pulse laser is a civilian six-pounder. It can hurt starships, but it's innacurate - and it allows you to put a few vaguely threatening weapons in your turret mounts that can still fire at missiles if you need them to.

3) Any weapon can only fire once per turn. So meaningful point defence needs a lot of lasers.

4) The advantage of missiles is that they don't suffer any real accuracy penalties when firing from distant range; you just have to wait a quarter hour or so for the missile spread to arrive. You don't lose the missile if you screw up the first dice roll, remember, it just makes the 'to hit' roll harder. Also, bear in mind smart missiles, which always hit on an 8+ and keep coming back for another try until shot down or out of fuel... Also, the DM-2 to hit from dodging is only for beam weapons, not missiles.

5) I'm not a fan of sandcasters - but remember you have to fire sand (and hit with it) for it to have an effect. So it's not a 'shield' but a 'buckler' - it's actively parrying incoming fire.

6) Yes, a gazelle is pretty much immune to lasers and missiles. Gazelles are meant to be 'Oh ****!" contacts that lead to the players running like buggery for the jump limit/orbital terminator/atmosphere.

7) If intending to shoot at proper warships (silly people!) then particle weaponry at a minimum is pretty much a prerequisite. Particle Barbettes are nice efficient antiship guns, but a pop-up triple turret with a single particle beam in it is concealable, which allows you to pretend to be a harmless civilian in normal situations.

8 ) If a ship has a beam laser/sandcaster turret (a pretty common fit) then it is not intended to attack another ship with it. That's purely a defensive armament, because - as you noted - a beam laser can't hurt a ship through sand clouds, so two ships with such turrets can sit their pounding on one another indefinitely (or at least for two hourse before they run out of sand!) without inflicting damage.

9) Generic missiles are indeed a bit poo. Nukes are not bad and there are variant missiles which are a lot scarier. Jumpbreaker missiles (Scoundrel, I think?) can prevent a target jumping away. Multiwarhead missiles are no more effective against armoured foes but work like a sawn-off against unarmoured targets - on average hitting harder than a nuke on a target with 0 armour. If you don't like sandcasters, look at sandcutter missiles, too; one hit from them prevents the target using sandcasters, at which point you can blow him to dust bunnies with beam weapon fire.

10) Barrage combat is a nice simplification for big ships pounding on each other. You don't need to really look at it for light ships firing popguns at each other. If the players manage to attract the attention of a flock of 10+ fighters chasing them it might be worth using for speed of rolling.

11) The Gazelle in the core rulebook, when operating as a navy ship, generally turns up with nuclear missiles in its racks.

12) No-one is expecting you to make your own ships to make the game work. However, if the crew of a trader wish to engage in a little light piratical japery, they would be well advised to have one of their turrets dismounted and replaced with particle artillery. That's not a new class of ship, it's the equivalent of someone saying "I intend to get into gunfights now and then, I think I'll buy an UZI". A ship with only pulse or beam lasers is perfectly capable of threatening merchants, but something bigger is needed to hit light warships.

 

[Galadrion]

Actually, a much more reasonable weapon for a jumpcusser privateer/pirate would be the plasma guns from TCS - they're powerful enough to counter pretty much any armor you're likely to encounter, without requiring a bay. Shoot, you can fit two of 'em into a triple turret! Heck, for a Free or Far Trader refitted for a little bushwhackin' work, you puts two o' them babies into one triple turret, load the other turret with a sandcaster-and-beam-laser point-defense setup, and start huntin'! Which'll work great, until you run into the first serious anti-piracy patrol...

 

[Reynard]

Seriously, a free trader crew needing to turn to piracy to make ends meet have a couple extra million credits to trade in their civilian beam lasers for military grade weapons just to blow a couple extra holes in unarmed or lightly armed targets?! I'm sure most system patrols will understand they're merely for self defense. That may be why some systems have to militarize their local patrols with Gazelles and SDBs.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Actually, a much more reasonable weapon for a jumpcusser privateer/pirate would be the plasma guns from TCS - they're powerful enough to counter pretty much any armor you're likely to encounter, without requiring a bay. Shoot, you can fit two of 'em into a triple turret! Heck, for a Free or Far Trader refitted for a little bushwhackin' work, you puts two o' them babies into one triple turret, load the other turret with a sandcaster-and-beam-laser point-defense setup, and start huntin'! Which'll work great, until you run into the first serious anti-piracy patrol...

I agree on plasma guns. Compared to particle guns they're cheaper and more reliable. Mounting two guns in one turrets gives two chances to hit instead of one, and the static +4 means that even a bad roll will deal damage upon successful hit.

Putting two plasma guns in one turrets means more offensive power compared to particle guns (unless the enemy has heavy armor) and the dual mounting also means that if one wants to use the turrets for defensive work, they can fit one plasma gun and one sandcaster or beam laser in each turret, depending on what they wish to defend against.

What's not to like?

Strangely, I don't think I've ever seen a ship design use them...? Why is that? Is the extra range on the particle beam that much more useful? More firepower per turret or a chancce to deal damage and still defend (laser/sand) ought to be worth something?

For barbettes though, I can see the particle beam being more useful, where both weapons are single shot. With a particle barbette I can understand if one wants to have particle in the offensive turrets too, for better synergy (same range) but still... Oh well.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Actually, a much more reasonable weapon for a jumpcusser privateer/pirate would be the plasma guns from TCS - they're powerful enough to counter pretty much any armor you're likely to encounter, without requiring a bay. Shoot, you can fit two of 'em into a triple turret! Heck, for a Free or Far Trader refitted for a little bushwhackin' work, you puts two o' them babies into one triple turret, load the other turret with a sandcaster-and-beam-laser point-defense setup, and start huntin'! Which'll work great, until you run into the first serious anti-piracy patrol...

I agree on plasma guns. Compared to particle guns they're cheaper and more reliable. Mounting two guns in one turrets gives two chances to hit instead of one, and the static +4 means that even a bad roll will deal damage upon successful hit.

Putting two plasma guns in one turrets means more offensive power compared to particle guns (unless the enemy has heavy armor) and the dual mounting also means that if one wants to use the turrets for defensive work, they can fit one plasma gun and one sandcaster or beam laser in each turret, depending on what they wish to defend against.

What's not to like?

Strangely, I don't think I've ever seen a ship design use them...? Why is that? Is the extra range on the particle beam that much more useful? More firepower per turret or a chancce to deal damage and still defend (laser/sand) ought to be worth something?

For barbettes though, I can see the particle beam being more useful, where both weapons are single shot. With a particle barbette I can understand if one wants to have particle in the offensive turrets too, for better synergy (same range) but still... Oh well.

 

[AndrewW]

Strangely, I don't think I've ever seen a ship design use them...? Why is that? Is the extra range on the particle beam that much more useful? More firepower per turret or a chancce to deal damage and still defend (laser/sand) ought to be worth something?

That's not surprising, most of the published ship designs predate TCS, and even for those that don't might not be using information from that source.

 

[sideranautae]

Mounting two guns in one turrets gives two chances to hit instead of one,

I don't think you make a roll to hit separately for each "barrel" in a turret but, only one roll per turret. I could be wrong but couldn't find it in the rule books.

 

[Reynard]

Since each weapon has it's own combat stats and not treated as barrages if non-capital and not using High Guard combat rules, I believe each gun in a turret is a separate attack while missiles are launched in the Missile Launching sub-phase.

 

[sideranautae]

Since each weapon has it's own combat stats and not treated as barrages if non-capital and not using High Guard combat rules, I believe each gun in a turret is a separate attack while missiles are launched in the Missile Launching sub-phase.

Could be. It doesn't state such in the rules. I've never seen a combat example where you roll 3 To Hit rolls for a triple Pulse Laser turret. Maybe errata is needed?

 

[Galadrion]

Could be. It doesn't state such in the rules. I've never seen a combat example where you roll 3 To Hit rolls for a triple Pulse Laser turret. Maybe errata is needed?

Either that, or this is one of those cases where it's appropriate for the GM to make a ruling. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of game quality difference on either side of this one, as long as the situation is played consistently in the game. Either the turret only gets one roll per turn (all weapons use the same roll to hit, resulting in - most of the time - all weapons hitting or all weapons missing) or every weapon rolls individually to hit. The only potential downside I see to the one-roll-per-turret method is point defense: if you use some (but not all) of a turret's weapons for p.d, are the rest of them wasted for the round? That would be the reason I would personally come down on the side of the one-roll-per-weapon version.

Oh, and Reynard? Privateering/piracy - as well as any other form of free-enterprise military work - has always been a relatively pricy strategy, particularly if the would-be entrepreneur wanted to survive and be successful at the game. Sure, a would-be bandit prince can load up his followers with the local equivalent of hunting weapons, and he'll be successful... as long as he's lucky enough not to run into the local real military. But if he wants a chance to fight clear in case of an ambush by professionals, he's going to need some better (which means, more expensive) gear.

So, yes. The smarter - which is probably going to translate into "more successful" - privateers/pirates are going to spend a few megacredits for something like the plasma gun turrets. It's still cheaper than the mil-spec weaponry like particle beams - particularly in terms of hull volume - and it hits hard enough to threaten just about anything the pirate needs threatened. Anything too heavily armored for a plasma turret to penetrate is probably pure military, and those vessels don't generally carry much cargo.

 

[sideranautae]

Could be. It doesn't state such in the rules. I've never seen a combat example where you roll 3 To Hit rolls for a triple Pulse Laser turret. Maybe errata is needed?

Either that, or this is one of those cases where it's appropriate for the GM to make a ruling.

True. When there is a missing rule in a game the GM has to make a ruling.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

That's not surprising, most of the published ship designs predate TCS, and even for those that don't might not be using information from that source.

You have a point there, but not even among the fan-made ships available from drivethrurpg have I seen plasma turrets.

I don't think you make a roll to hit separately for each "barrel" in a turret but, only one roll per turret. I could be wrong but couldn't find it in the rule books.

Either that, or this is one of those cases where it's appropriate for the GM to make a ruling. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of game quality difference on either side of this one, as long as the situation is played consistently in the game. Either the turret only gets one roll per turn (all weapons use the same roll to hit, resulting in - most of the time - all weapons hitting or all weapons missing) or every weapon rolls individually to hit.

I've just assumed it's one roll per shot, meaning 0-3 beam lasers in a triple turret can hit, not 0 or 3. Though I have been toying with some form of focus fire akin to personal scale burst, with a single roll to hit but some form of damage bonus, for armor penetration... Say a triple beam turret can fire three single shots or a single 1d6+2 shot or something like that...

A single roll for all weapons in the turret could still mean that some weapons miss and others hit, if the weapons are of different types with different optimum range.

The only potential downside I see to the one-roll-per-turret method is point defense: if you use some (but not all) of a turret's weapons for p.d, are the rest of them wasted for the round? That would be the reason I would personally come down on the side of the one-roll-per-weapon version.

Interresting reasoning regarding defensive fire.

A gunner may fire any or all of the weapons in his turret or bay but each turret or bay may only fire once per round.

I've heard the above quote being interpreted to mean that each turret may only fire once, meaning that the entire turret fires either offensively of defensively, meaning a sand/laser turret would be very limited in it's use (one attack shot, or laser anti-missile fire, or sand defence). I do prefer the interpretation that each weapon in the turret can fire once. We are talking six minute game turns, after all. Should be enough time to both attack and defend, with the same turret.

Which brings me back to plasma turrets, and the flexibility of allowing them to double-mount alongside a laser or sand caster for defensive work

 

[DickTurpin]

Since each weapon has it's own combat stats and not treated as barrages if non-capital and not using High Guard combat rules, I believe each gun in a turret is a separate attack while missiles are launched in the Missile Launching sub-phase.

Could be. It doesn't state such in the rules. I've never seen a combat example where you roll 3 To Hit rolls for a triple Pulse Laser turret. Maybe errata is needed?

The closest I have seen to a rule on multi-weapon turrets is from the first paragraph under Barrages in the Expanded Space Combat section of High Guard. "The basic Traveller space combat rules track each individual laser beam and missile", and "While it is still possible to deal with all the attacks from a capital ship broadside individually, few referees have the patience to bother with several thousand dice rolls".

A quick check reveals no capital ships with several thousand weapon turrets, but there are some with several thousand weapons, it seems to imply that in smaller ships each weapon rolls separately to attack.

 

[sideranautae]

A quick check reveals no capital ships with several thousand weapon turrets, but there are some with several thousand weapons, it seems to imply that in smaller ships each weapon rolls separately to attack.

It's possible to interpret it that way. But, checking for what sample ships have been published means nothing along this line.

For some reason I don't think that the designer had it in mind that a 500T ship with triple P-laser turrets will make 15 attack rolls a round... Hmm...

 

[Jeraa]

For some reason I don't think that the designer had it in mind that a 500T ship with triple P-laser turrets will make 15 attack rolls a round... Hmm...

Why not? There are many similarities between MGT and Classic Traveller. And with Book 2 CT starship combat, each weapon got its own attack roll. It is entirely possible the same was meant to happen in MGT as well.

Fourth, two dice are thrown, and that result modified by both the attack and defense DMs. If the modified result equals or exceeds 8, a hit is achieved. The dice throw is made once for each firing laser weapon. The total number of hits is noted.

Personally, I use one attack roll per turret with each weapon rolling its own damage separately, with armor applying to each individual weapon. Each weapon should use the same targeting parameters, so it kind of makes sense they use the same attack roll.

A quick check reveals no capital ships with several thousand weapon turrets, but there are some with several thousand weapons, it seems to imply that in smaller ships each weapon rolls separately to attack.

Tigress-class dreadnoughts (Supplement 3: Fighting Ships) have 1000 triple beam laser turrets, 1000 particle beam turrets, 800 triple sandcaster turrets, and 800 triple missile turrets, for a total of 3,600 turrets carrying a total of 8800 weapons. So they do exist.

Plankwell dreadnoughts have 1,760 turrets (not quite a couple thousand).

 

[sideranautae]

Personally, I use one attack roll per turret with each weapon rolling its own damage separately, with armor applying to each individual weapon.

That's how I do it and how others I know do it. Otherwise a triple B-laser could go through any armor rating.

 

[phavoc]

I'd settle for the Argo and a single wave-motion gun.

Take that you Plankwell bully!