Ship Suggestions/Changes - ISA

[l33tpenguin]

Change to a system that takes speed into account with initiative for moving ships and boresight the white star

And make heavier ships more resiliant to compensate.

And, as far as using 'on screen' in regards to the white star, its given a forward arc beam to represent its ability to bring its weapon to bear, why are ships like the Omega and G'Quan boresighted when on screen they are shown firing at arcs!

In the end, the reasoning for the whitestar being front arced is it comes down to chewbacca being a wookie from endor

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't understand that comment, there...

Frankly, the argument that "White Stars are super-agile" is total nonsense. The game reflects ships' agility in the movement phase, not the firing phase. You don't see the White Star failing to get a boresight on screen but you never see it fire off-bore, either - while we see boresighted ships do just that. :roll:

 

[l33tpenguin]

I don't understand that comment, there...

My wookie from endor comment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

 

[Ripple]

LBH - yes, I would say we do see a couple of instances where the whitestar fires pulsars and not beams... why? perhaps cause the beam was not lined up... or so we're told has happened with the omega.

The whitestar does not need to be able to fire every weapon every shot to be viable as a ship. Making it bore sighted would not make it weak or unusable due to its extreme maneuverability and front arc secondaries as well as scout role.

Ripple

 

[skavendan]

I am more annoyed personally that they have tripple damage / precise only ship to have that @ Raid level. Shadow ship doesn't get tripple damage which is disapointing.

One other ship gets Tripple damage @ raid level and that is the drazi but it's slow loading so it's only effectily Double damage.

 

[eldiablito]

I don't play ISA and yet I still don't have a problem with the WS at the current time.

Sure, there are problems with bore-sights, the existing initiative system, critical hits that take large ships out of the game in a single volley...

That means that the mechanics need tweaking. As someone mentioned earlier, let us improve that FIRST, then let us deal with specific ships.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I don't play ISA and yet I still don't have a problem with the WS at the current time.

Sure, there are problems with bore-sights, the existing initiative system, critical hits that take large ships out of the game in a single volley...

That means that the mechanics need tweaking. As someone mentioned earlier, let us improve that FIRST, then let us deal with specific ships.

This by far isn't what I would consider the worst problem in the game. but it is also VERY easily fixed

 

[Ripple]

The mechanics are being discussed elsewhere... and likely won't change much as Matt has generally said he likes them. So we hope and cajole, but we also talk about specific ships and why they feel too much one way or the other. In part we do this because it illustrates the mechanics that are exploitable the way they are.

White stars only need a tweak, they were very close to perfect before. If the beam mechanic hadn't been changed they likely would have been fine, but the change in the beam mechanic made the darn things too deadly to large scale ships. In effect they doubled the whitestars basic output, but upped the number of additional rolls the beam produces vs hull 6 (not sure on the exact math on the new beam vs old beam re-rolls vs hull 6... think its roughly double as well).

Anyway... eh...

Ripple

 

[Da Boss]

I think they are okl but if the Buirger Beam system became an Official alternative that may solve the problem or at least reduce the potential for silly amount of beam hits

reminder of the beam rules:

1-2 miss
3-5 1 hit
6 3 hits


however I do need to try it out some to see how it works in practice?

 

[kitsune106]

well, the reasoning migth be since so small adn agile, coudl make the small adjustments to bring the bore beam on target. migth be that hte small scale manuevering migth be refelcted in the firing arcs. but I could be wrong.

 

[l33tpenguin]

well, the reasoning migth be since so small adn agile, coudl make the small adjustments to bring the bore beam on target. migth be that hte small scale manuevering migth be refelcted in the firing arcs. but I could be wrong.

That is supposedly the reasoning. While only ever seen firing in abore arc, the white star is so highly agile that it is able to bring its beam weapon to bear on any target.

Mean while the Omega and G'Quan are large lumbering ships and while they have been show firing their beams in a forward arc, the boresight mechanic is being used to show how difficult it is to bring their weapon to bear.

So, the white star gets the benefit of the on screen evidence (bore weapon as forward arc) while the Omega and G'Quan are getting shafted by the same evidence (forward weapon as bore).

 

[Ripple]

I knew the reasoning of why the whitestar got the bore arc, I happen to disagree with it, as I think 2/90's is more than enough to bore sight anything that has already moved. I also think that the on screen evidence shows that the whitestar sometimes doesn't use it's beam. Aside from maybe just being arrogant, why wouldn't they if they had the shot. When we see the Narn only shoot one of their beams we're told its because they can't shoot to the side (as opposed to just choosing not to), why is the ISA different?

The reasoning I was more concerned with was the decision to up the beam in the first place. The whitestar had plenty of firepower, and against anything hull 5 or 6 was in as good or better than before the beam change. So why the extra die with no counterbalance? It was already one of the most winning designs we'd seen... why the upgrade? With the addition of the bluestar the ISA fleet had it's one major flaw not just fixed... but turned into a huge benefit if exploited right.

Ripple

 

[David Anla Shok']

I knew the reasoning of why the whitestar got the bore arc, I happen to disagree with it, as I think 2/90's is more than enough to bore sight anything that has already moved. I also think that the on screen evidence shows that the whitestar sometimes doesn't use it's beam. Aside from maybe just being arrogant, why wouldn't they if they had the shot. When we see the Narn only shoot one of their beams we're told its because they can't shoot to the side (as opposed to just choosing not to), why is the ISA different?

The reasoning I was more concerned with was the decision to up the beam in the first place. The whitestar had plenty of firepower, and against anything hull 5 or 6 was in as good or better than before the beam change. So why the extra die with no counterbalance? It was already one of the most winning designs we'd seen... why the upgrade? With the addition of the bluestar the ISA fleet had it's one major flaw not just fixed... but turned into a huge benefit if exploited right.

Ripple

The ISA gets upgrades because it's too cool not to.....

 

[skavendan]

The ISA gets upgrades because it's too cool not to.....

You mean it's the no brainer fleet, that's the worst line I have heard.

 

[David Anla Shok']

The ISA gets upgrades because it's too cool not to.....

You mean it's the no brainer fleet, that's the worst line I have heard.

Oh, it's hardly a no brainer fleet, and I doubt this was the worst line you ever uttered, or heard

 

[Jim?]

I play ISA, and it's very hard *not* to win with them, once you get a grasp of init sinking with bluestars, then moving the whitestars out of major fire arcs and finally swooping in and destroying your enemy's fleet where they're weak, hence they're a no brainer fleet.

I'd like the whitestar to be be boresighted... it'd mean there'd actually be an additional layer of tactics involved, and those nasty 4/6 and 6/4 crits wouldn't be as bad, either!

 

[David Anla Shok']

I play ISA, and it's very hard *not* to win with them, once you get a grasp of init sinking with bluestars, then moving the whitestars out of major fire arcs and finally swooping in and destroying your enemy's fleet where they're weak, hence they're a no brainer fleet.

I'd like the whitestar to be be boresighted... it'd mean there'd actually be an additional layer of tactics involved, and those nasty 4/6 and 6/4 crits wouldn't be as bad, either!

Hard not to win? Depends on who you are playing against, the size of the game, and the fleet you are fighting. Some games are very easy (save for naughty dice) and other games are hard fought. I've had good times and bad times with my ISA.

 

[Ripple]

The whitestar seems to have been balanced as if it would be the only hull type on the table... once you added the rest of the fleet it got pretty strong.

Now there are races that can take it out... and sizes... lots of accurate/e-mine will give them fits. Some drahk builds due to being out sunk and having their own little brother (light raider) nipping their heels constantly. An if the table is small enough in comparison to the point (say 5 Arm on a standard 6x4) you won't have anyplace to hid, just too much overlap/too many dice.

But assuming five raid to five battle, some terrain and not Drahk/e-mine fleet... very hard to beat if you take a few bluestars.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

This is the point I think. Something needs to be done but there are a number of different options available.

Noble Playtester, did anyone consider a laser/pulse array style weapon for the White Star? It's implied in the early appearances of the ship that it can either fire those nose cannons or the beam, not both. Remember when the first White Star is attacking the Shadow Ship essentially for the first time and it runs in, firing the pulsars and no beams? When we see them later, the beam seems to replace the nose pulsars in some scenes...

It's something we're looking at now but we didn't back then as quite frankly the move was away from that sort of thing (see the Omega's weapons too).

Firing modes (not quite an all or nothing) and boresight are both being looked at however boresight really does divide a lot of players and the current thoughts seem to be "if we can balance the White Star without making it boresight or changing the stats then that's the first option to look at".

 

[Jim?]

Even against Drakh, my favoured 5 raid pure ISA fleet is almost obnoxiously strong:-

2 Whitestars
6 Bluestars
6 Wings of Whitestar Fighters

The fighters kill all of the raiders/fast destroyers (accurate, DD guns hitting on 3's that fire before the drakh, combined with high speed... nasty), the bluestars act as init sinks from hell and the WS paint targets and hide 'till the raiders are dead, then smash any cruisers/carriers.

That's without allies, which could make them even nastier (swap 4 fighter flights for an Avenger loaded up with T-bolts, for example).

Considering their relative power in sinking, Bluestars could be slightly up damaged/crewed (say 2 points in each) or given the scout trait, then moved up to skirmish. Keep the fighters as the only patrol selection and the fleet as a whole becomes a lot less sick without changing the whitestars at all.

Otherwise, boresighting them might make it a bit tougher to win with them.