Rules Clarification: Agent Programs (CSCp69)

The inter-relationship between mobile comm, transceivers and computers is a bit tortuous as they often include each other at different TLs.
The TL 11 Mobile Comm has no inherent advantage over the TL10 Mobile Comm other than being half the price (Cr250) and mass due to the retrotech rules. It has 5km range.

At TL8 a zero mass 5km range Transceiver is Cr75, at TL11 it would have halved in price several times to the point that the cost of a TL8 equivalent will be less than Cr10. However beyond TL10 a TL8 transceiver is "included at no additional cost in most electronic devices".

You can add a computer to a Transceiver. You can add a TL9 computer to a TL11 transceiver (which can still have the capability of a TL8 transceiver). This costs twice the cost of the computer but as the TL9 computer has no advantage over TL8 we can retrotech it the TL8 transceiver with computer/1 costs Cr260 so broadly the same outcome as the Mobile Comm.

Where it comes unstuck is that you can buy the TL11 retrotech TL8 Mobile Computer equivalent which is only Cr32 and by now is a chip (1/8th of the normal Cr250 price). TL8+ computers come with cameras, displays and 5km comms as standard at no cost (echoing the sentiment in the section on transceivers).

So basically why buy a retrotech TL10 Mobile Comm on p63 for Cr250 when you can buy a retrotech TL8 Computer/1 for Cr32 or a retrotech TL10 Computer/2 for Cr250 or a specialised Computer/1 with built in Intelligent interface for under Cr160 or a Computer/1 with 100 times the range for Cr150.

For your Cr250 you could have eight TL8 Computer/1 each able to run a single bandwidth program rather than your TL10 Mobile Comm that can only run one. Those 8 computers could all communicate wirelessly (over 5km) and could run those 8 programs simultaneously.

The Mobile Comms all cost too much.
Well explained! Now my head hurts... :P
 
The rules in software in both CRB and CSC are near incomprehensible. It's very hard to work out what you can actually do with a Computer/1.

I've got a character with no Electronics skills that I want to give a small portable computer/comms device at TL-11. I just can't work out what he can have that does anything useful.
 
The rules in software in both CRB and CSC are near incomprehensible. It's very hard to work out what you can actually do with a Computer/1.

I've got a character with no Electronics skills that I want to give a small portable computer/comms device at TL-11. I just can't work out what he can have that does anything useful.
Yeah. It is complicated. I tried to do the work for a player who wanted to play a hacker, but My Referee mojo failed, and I couldn't figure it out.

Sarcasm - Can a character with no Electronics skill even use a computer?

Serious question - Do you need to make an Electronics skill check to use an Expert Program?
 
The rules in software in both CRB and CSC are near incomprehensible. It's very hard to work out what you can actually do with a Computer/1.

I've got a character with no Electronics skills that I want to give a small portable computer/comms device at TL-11. I just can't work out what he can have that does anything useful.
Expert systems don't require any electronics skill to use, they grant a +1DM if you have a skill (with the Intelligent interface) or grant it at level 0 (with Intellect interface). If you have a specialised computer the Intelligent or Intellect interface doesn't take up any bandwidth. You will need a computer for each package with a Computer/1 as it will require a specialised computer and you cannot swap out the skill package. Computer/2 would allow you to run the interface and Expert(Skill)/1 at the same time and you could swap out the skills software media at will to change the expert package (but see below for a whizzo scheme to overcome this limitation).

Even with -3 for unskilled in Electronics accessing databases is an easy task and shouldn't be too difficult (especially if you can take your time).

Agent can actually substitute Electronics(Computers) for you (and it takes less bandwidth than the equivalent Expert package). This can autonomously run Computer skill checks (trawl data nets, access planetary trade systems or even hack into systems - though they'd need to be pretty poorly protected). Agent-0 is available at TL11 costs very little, takes up no-bandwidth and requires no special interface. It grants Electronics(Computer) 0 and would be an ideal tool for someone with no Electronics skill who still needs to operate computer equipment.

You can of course use a Computer/1 for translation packages and the like as well and any software that only requires a voice command. Personal Trainer can also fit and requires no special interface or skill to use. Certain other equipment can benefit from a computer for storing or analysing data or remotely accessing other computer systems.

Of course a specialised computer running Intellect interface can run Expert Electronics at level 0 and unlocks that limitation (for all flavours of Electronics, for just computers Agent is more efficient).

As we have discussed before a wireless connection to a more substantial computer can allow you to run that computer software remotely. So you could have Intellect interface occupying all the bandwidth on your Computer/1 Mobile Comm and host the actual expert packages on another computer(s) wirelessly. These could be low cost single chip computers. These could be swapped out or upgraded over time without having to upgrade the comm itself, if you lost one it wouldn't be the end of the world.

I had a character that wasted 2 bandwidth on Digital Friend so they had someone to talk to on long journeys. As the package got imprinted it was able to provide auxiliary memory of events that it had been party to as it had perfect recall. That saved a lot of misunderstandings. You could probably achieve the same effect more manually with a lower bandwidth computer. Even without the remote expert systems described above, you could use the language comprehension and automation aspects of the Intellect interface (or maybe even Agent) to take notes and record things acting as a personal organiser, cum secretary (though without the sparkling personality of the Digital Friend).

You could run Digital Friend(s) on remote computers and just use the comm to interface with them (like Ironman uses Jarvis). You could have a cast of thousands (your plastic pals who are fun to be with!). This is more fun than doing it with expert packages. "Hal can you open the door..." You can also instruct robots to do you bidding by remote (and some robots are cheeeeeeeap).

You could have more fun with this than if your character had a better computer and it is an ideal way to improve your character by equipment uplift.

Actually I am doing this for my next character or NPC.
 
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Sarcasm - Can a character with no Electronics skill even use a computer?
At the earliest Tech Levels (TL6 - 7) societies, Electronics Researcher skill would have been the only way of operating a computer.
Then there was stuff like high-level programming languages, and
Computer Literacy as an Admin specialisation happened.
Also Windows, Icons, Menus and Pointing Devices (WIMP) meant that nearly everyone could "navigate" such a device.
Serious question - Do you need to make an Electronics skill check to use an Expert Program?
It helps to start asking what an Expert Program/System really is, before delving into the question.
An Expert System is a computer program that emulates the functioning of a human "expert". It was seen as being the future of AI back in the 70s/80s. However, because of the Expert System Quirks, they fell out of fashion and gave way to modern Large Language Models (LLM), Artificial Neural Networks (ANN) and Decision Support Systems (DSS).

Some of the Expert System quirks are:
Cost of acquiring knowledge from a human "expert."
Exponential increase in size when increasing the expert rulebase.
The difficulty of updating the expert rulebase with new abilities.
Difficulty in verifying rule consistency.
The programming languages of Expert Systems/Programs haven't been learned by successive generations.

Expert Systems might be able to perform as an "expert" in Interpretation, Prediction, Diagnosis, Design, Planning, Monitoring, Debugging, Repair, Instruction, Control. In other words, providing advise to an operations researcher, of some kind. Not really intended for the novice - but hey-ho, this is science fiction, so maybe it will happen that an untrained novice in a specific skill will benefit from such an "Expert" Program. That is kind of happening now, albeit, not with Expert Systems, but with LLM, ANN and DSS.

Also another grey area is the distinction between Intelligent Systems and Expert Systems. Expert Systems only give "advise." Intelligent Systems tend to be machines that are autonomous actors or doers. On the surface, it looks like any Traveller referee could handwave the differences, and just lump everything together as an "Expert Program." Except I wonder if that confuses people on what are the limits (and quirks) of these things are? You could say the answer depends on your type of sci-fi, or you could say that the game needs a more gamified version of what computers and software can do.
Sorry for rambling on.
 
I don't know that TL7 computers were THAT primitive. That's the 70's 80's and 90's.

TL4 computers were mechanical calculating machines. The early electromechanical and electronic ones of the 40's would be TL5. TL6 era should probably use normal Mongoose rules, but be aware that Electronics itself would be a fairly unusual skill - radar operators, radio technicians, switchboard operators. You might argue that Electronics (Comms) is used to operate a landline telephone or tune an AM/FM radio, but really those are automatic things that don't require a formal skill.

I think it might be sufficient to rule that for equipment below TL6, Electronics does not default to the other specialties at all. So Electronics (Comms) can have a go at operating a TL5 radio, but would need Electronics (Computer) to be considered skilled at operating a TL5 computer. In both cases penalties should be applied (skilled or unskilled) for using gear that is technologically much more primitive than the character is used to.

Language might also come into it. Before the 80's and the arrival of graphical user interfaces, you did need to learn at least a command line language. Although I'd expect that a Traveller character may well have auto translation assistance that can deal with that angle.
 
The problem, if it is a problem, is that the game does not provide mechanics for the wide range of things that having a computer lets you do that not having a computer does not let you do. I grew up in the era of the microfiche machine and the typewriter and having to go to the library to look at microfiche or newspaper morgues. So I have no problem thinking of lots of things a character can do by having a computer that they can't do if they don't have one.

As for the difference between Computer/0 and Computer/1...there's a lot I can do on my desktop computer that I cannot do on my tablet.

Is there very much of that stuff which will have a specific application requiring a die roll during an adventure? Probably not. But that depends on the kind of adventure you are running.
 
Arguably, your desktop is also Computer/0, but the point is well made.

In terms of raw computing power, my TL8 phone outclasses any of my TL7 desktops by at least an one if not two orders of magnitude.
 
Regardless, my computer is substantially more powerful than my tablet. Maybe there are tablets out there that run high end 3D design & CAD programs, but you wouldn't expect them to. Is that worth modelling in the game, though? That's not the sort of activity you normally think about adventurers spending time on doing.

Honestly, part of the problem is that we act like every iteration of a thing still exists as a commercial product. I can't walk into the store and pick up a Commodore 64. So it's kind of like "are you buying a TL11 computer? It's Computer/1. There probably isn't any Computer/0 still being commercially made on TL11 world. They've all gone the way of the Commodore 64.

The game effectively has the equivalent of the Commodore 64 and the iMac4 in the rules together because you might be on a world where the C64 is state of the art. But the player doesn't care that the graphics on Sonic the Hedgehog's C64 version is not comparable to the most recent version. Because it is their character playing Sonic the Hedgehog to pass the time. The differences between the two don't matter.

And that's ultimately going to be true for most applications of a computer in Traveller. Especially since most of the time the TL is the modifier, not the power of the machine. So as long as I have a TL11 computer I can hack like a mofo, even if its stats wise a Commodore 64. :P
 
Well, since a Computer/0 still has unlimited storage they really aren't the equivalent of a C64. It's more a case of "this is what we use for any minimum level computer product in the baseline Traveller interstellar community". ACTUAL primitive computers are more of a prototech matter, or should be considered their own items. We don't conflate black powder handgonnes with repeating rifles, after all, even if they might use similar rules.

Edit:
Probably a TL7 Computer/0 is more along the lines of a 90's or 00's desktop. That feels about right to me. You *can* buy them at TL8+ but it's not clear why you would bother. Some specific higher tech gear is Computer/0, but that's stuff like computer weave and intelligent weapons.
 
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If you say so, but that's not what the rules say. Those are our portable computers (laptops) today. Computer/0 and Computer/1. Mid sized computers (desk tops and servers) are a TL lower than these.

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But that's not really the point. The point is that people are not buying Desktop Computer/0 now that Desktop Computer/1 (or whatever ratings you want to give them) exist. The hobbyists buying C64s are not doing so to use them as workstations. They are using them for nostalgia and to use outdated software that is difficult to run on a modern computer.

If you are on a TL12 world and you buy a laptop, it's going to be a Computer/3.

Obviously, Traveller doesn't want to get into the weedy details on this topic, so they just sort of handwave interoperability and storage because that's tedious and annoying, the sort of thing the players would deal with at the starport before going on the adventure, like you buy a power adaptor before going overseas.

And it only cares about the few types of programs that are going to actually modify die rolls. But the difference between a Computer/0 and a Computer/1 would be extremely obvious to the actual user, even if not the player. Whether you want to reflect that in your game or not is up to you. The rules just focus on if you get a +1 on a roll or not.
 
Well, there is a significant threshold between /0 and /1 or better, in that a Computer/0 can run one bandwidth 0 program at a time, but the others can run as many bandwidth 0 programs as desired. And is one of the reasons why, although you can technically buy a cheaper, smaller computer/0 at TL8, you rarely would bother (except for the wearable end of gear, as described). Just get a Computer/1. There IS however a cost saving reason to buy a Computer/1 at TL9 if you're only intending to run low grade programs on it.
 
The retrotech rules recognise that the TL differential is not as useful for electronic gear. The TL is the technology of the computer not the specification of the computer (though the spec is at lest somewhat dependent on the technology).

Pre TL7 computers were mechanical rotors, valves, transistors plus card store, magnetic cores store and other techniques that while it opened the door to digital computing were not suitable for desktop devices or non-technical operators. Components are bespoke. They were not programmed by simple text editing they are reconfigured with a specific function. The code would likely be a low level language or machine code (or rewiring) and an understanding of logic gates and complex mathematics would be a pre-requisite. The desk top version is limited to non-programmable single function device (like a calculator), but it could still be very capable at that single function.

Once we get into chips and magnetic media we are at TL7, but chip technology covers a wide range as does magnetic storage. Storing your program at 300 baud on a reel to reel recorder is very different to a more modern hard drive. A C64 is a hobby computer and at the time used large boards and relied on domestic tape recorders for storage to reduce cost for consumers. Serious office computers of the same time scale were IBM PCs which had 8" floppies and were far more capable. Components have become standardised and can be interchangeable (though specific companies will still try to lock you in with bespoke interfaces). You still tended to run a single application at a time (as most people were in specialised roles) and not everyone needed one and internal memory was limited and often needed user management. There was a certain overhead and you needed to understand the foibles of your specific system so some skill would be required. If you wanted to do something really technical you would need to be writing code to do it and most of those 80's machines came with some version of programming language, usually a high level one and with a bit of reading anyone with a logical mind could do it. Most people would not bother however and rely on someone else's code. If they did write code it would take significant time to write a complex program and the same amount of time to test and fix bugs. Specialist coding languages are optimised for particular user communities. Machines are however are multi-function and software functions (and to a degree hardware) can be swapped out to make the system more capable. Your accumulated media will likely take up more space than your computer.

Maybe TL8 is the arrival of solid state storage, multi-core processors and COB equipment. This allows more processor time and memory to be managing the human-machine interface and making them easier to use. Computers are now not specialist machines for computer operators but basic tools for everyone. You granny is supposed to be able to use it without any training. In the unlikely event she did get training when she worked with them back in the day she will be poorly equipped to deal with the avalanche of trendy languages and possibly horrified by the lack of structure, design preparation and rolling out untested code for the users to test in use that may or may not be fixed in a later release. Programming often consists of recycling impenetrably complex routines written by a third party and bolting them together. Machines are fast and flexible and storage had been solved to the point that it is unlimited. You can hold the library of congress on a thumb drive. You will need it though as you will start storing so much crap that you never thought you needed when it took some effort to store it. Finding it now becomes the problem as no-one is curating the data as there is just so much. Some of the data is plain wrong. People become so unaware of the ubiquity of computers and their capacity that they start just assuming the functions they provide are part of the natural fabric of the universe and forget how to do simple things. Computers become smarter and allow people to become dumber.

TL9 we are all dead due to our own stupidity :)
 
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Agent can actually substitute Electronics(Computers) for you (and it takes less bandwidth than the equivalent Expert package). This can autonomously run Computer skill checks (trawl data nets, access planetary trade systems or even hack into systems - though they'd need to be pretty poorly protected). Agent-0 is available at TL11 costs very little, takes up no-bandwidth and requires no special interface. It grants Electronics(Computer) 0 and would be an ideal tool for someone with no Electronics skill who still needs to operate computer equipment.
I am not convinced it does, but my character would like it to (he has EDU DM -2 and no Electronics skills).
I read CSC p69 as saying that Agent gets Electronics (Computer) "for itself" when it is running autonomously, but that when it is assisting the chracer it just gives a +1 uplift to an existing Electronics (Computer) skill.

Agent:
Agent software packages provide computers with a degree of intelligence and the ability to autonomously carry out tasks assigned to them which require the use of Electronics (computers).
...
As with Expert packages, Agent software provides DM+1 when used in conjunction with a Traveller’s Electronics (computers) skill rather than autonomously.

Expert:
If a user already has at least level 0 of a skill, then any level Expert package grants DM+1 to their skill check.
 
Well, since a Computer/0 still has unlimited storage they really aren't the equivalent of a C64. It's more a case of "this is what we use for any minimum level computer product in the baseline Traveller interstellar community". ACTUAL primitive computers are more of a prototech matter, or should be considered their own items. We don't conflate black powder handgonnes with repeating rifles, after all, even if they might use similar rules.

Edit:
Probably a TL7 Computer/0 is more along the lines of a 90's or 00's desktop. That feels about right to me. You *can* buy them at TL8+ but it's not clear why you would bother. Some specific higher tech gear is Computer/0, but that's stuff like computer weave and intelligent weapons.
I'm never sure how old everyone else is here :)

I've worked in what we now call IT since the mid-70s. Although the release of the IBM PC in the mid 80s was a sea change, plus the early Macs of course, I'd say it was only with Windows 3.1 in the mid 90s that computers started to become accessible to someone with no computing skills at all.
 
Expert systems don't require any electronics skill to use, they grant a +1DM if you have a skill (with the Intelligent interface) or grant it at level 0 (with Intellect interface). If you have a specialised computer the Intelligent or Intellect interface doesn't take up any bandwidth. You will need a computer for each package with a Computer/1 as it will require a specialised computer and you cannot swap out the skill package. Computer/2 would allow you to run the interface and Expert(Skill)/1 at the same time and you could swap out the skills software media at will to change the expert package (but see below for a whizzo scheme to overcome this limitation).
Thanks.
I don't think there's a way of running Expert on a TL-11 Computer-1 - you can't run Intellect until TL-12, and Intelligent Interface which is available at TL-11 uses bandwidth 1 itself, leaving no space for the Expert package.

I think the only things you can (usefully) run on a TL-11 Computer/1 are:
  • Agent/0
  • Translation/0 or Translation/1
  • Personal Trainer/1
  • Intrusion/1
 
I am not convinced it does, but my character would like it to (he has EDU DM -2 and no Electronics skills).
I read CSC p69 as saying that Agent gets Electronics (Computer) "for itself" when it is running autonomously, but that when it is assisting the chracer it just gives a +1 uplift to an existing Electronics (Computer) skill.
Sorry. By granting the skill I meant it can do it autonomously (usefully insulating you from that appalling EDU DM). You just tell the computer to "Find me a supplier of X on the Planetary Data net". The computer makes the skill check. But from a practical standpoint that is no different to the character having skill 0 and making the check themselves.
 
Sure. I was wondering whether there are things that the character has to themselves rather than having their portable computer do for them. Maybe there are computers with non means for the portable computer to connect to it, so the character has to use a physical interface?
 
Thanks.
I don't think there's a way of running Expert on a TL-11 Computer-1 - you can't run Intellect until TL-12, and Intelligent Interface which is available at TL-11 uses bandwidth 1 itself, leaving no space for the Expert package.

I think the only things you can (usefully) run on a TL-11 Computer/1 are:
  • Agent/0
  • Translation/0 or Translation/1
  • Personal Trainer/1
  • Intrusion/1
Specialised Computers (CSC p69) have the interface included at no bandwidth. You can have specialised Intellect at TL9. It just cost 10x the price (but as you can buy the computer at a few tens of credits that is not such an issue).

You can still access remote Expert Packages using the Intellect on your Comm leveraging the remote computers bandwidth. Frankly you could host the Intellect on the remote computer as well and just use the Computer/1 to transfer the data to and fro, but I like the other functions of the interface to be on-hand.
 
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