Rules Clarification: How does BW work on Specialized Computers? (Core22 and CSC23)

Yenaldlooshi

Cosmic Mongoose
CSC23 which I assume is the most current states; "...Specialised computers allow all computer bandwidth to be available for the Expert skill package, which is purchased separately."

I have no idea then what makes the specialised computer so specialised. Of course the bandwidth will be available for the Expert Skill package!

Is this rule actually trying to say something like; ""...Specialised computers allow the total of computer bandwidth to be considered available for the Expert skill package at no BW cost against the BW available on the computer. Thus as an example; a computer/3 specialised for a certain expert software at level/3 can run the expert/3, plus intellect/2 and still have 1BW left over" ?

or is this entire example wrong?
 
CSC23 which I assume is the most current states; "...Specialised computers allow all computer bandwidth to be available for the Expert skill package, which is purchased separately."

I have no idea then what makes the specialised computer so specialised. Of course the bandwidth will be available for the Expert Skill package!

Is this rule actually trying to say something like; ""...Specialised computers allow the total of computer bandwidth to be considered available for the Expert skill package at no BW cost against the BW available on the computer. Thus as an example; a computer/3 specialised for a certain expert software at level/3 can run the expert/3, plus intellect/2 and still have 1BW left over" ?

or is this entire example wrong?
The simplest example in the book is the specialized Core Computers that allow you to run the Jump Program for "free". Basically, you don't count the bandwidth of the jump program against the total bandwidth used.
 
It sounds like it to me. Like a -bis ship's computer has dedicated bandwidth for running jump programs. If that is not the intent, they need to change the wording
 
CSC23 which I assume is the most current states; "...Specialised computers allow all computer bandwidth to be available for the Expert skill package, which is purchased separately."

I have no idea then what makes the specialised computer so specialised. Of course the bandwidth will be available for the Expert Skill package!

Is this rule actually trying to say something like; ""...Specialised computers allow the total of computer bandwidth to be considered available for the Expert skill package at no BW cost against the BW available on the computer. Thus as an example; a computer/3 specialised for a certain expert software at level/3 can run the expert/3, plus intellect/2 and still have 1BW left over" ?

or is this entire example wrong?
I read it that ordinarily the intellect package uses bandwidth. The intellect package is integral on the specialised computer and doesn't take up bandwidth itself. So a bandwidth 3 computer can run all 3 bandwidth for the expert package. The key words are "all computer bandwidth".

If my reading of it you don't get bandwidth free Expert software.

The other type of specialised computer in the Core book reads more like the bis model as it allows a /1 computer to run /2 or /3 software but only that software at that level.

EDIT: This is the wording that was in CSC16 apparently - see post below.
 
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CSC23 which I assume is the most current states; "...Specialised computers allow all computer bandwidth to be available for the Expert skill package, which is purchased separately."

I have no idea then what makes the specialised computer so specialised. Of course the bandwidth will be available for the Expert Skill package!
That has changed from CSC16. The CSC16 wording is:
Specialised Computer: A computer can be designed for a specific purpose, which gives it a Processing score of +1 or +2 higher for that program only. The navigation hand computer used by an explorer, for example, might be only a Computer/1, but could run the Navigation/3 program because it is specially designed for that task. A specialised computer costs 25% more per added rating – so, a Computer/1, Navigation/3 portable computer costs 150% of the cost of a basic Computer/1. At TL7 this would be Cr750.
In other words, if you need a simple handheld computer that fulfils a niche compatibility with only one particular piece of software, then a specialised computer is the way to do it.
In other words, devices such as Navigation (map reading) computers, cable testers, medical scanners, handheld security identifiers, pocket translators, etc, might be explored along these lines.
 
I'll take full blame here. My goal was to make the Traveller's own skillset more important than how many gadgets could fit in a bandolier of specialist computers.

Keeping in mind this was turned in 30 months ago, and I'm not sure what I had for dinner last week - no, not turkey, though that would have been a good guess. You still have to buy the Expert skill-specific package - which is then written into ROM or something because you can't change packages, but what you get is either Intelligent Interface or Intellect at no bandwidth or software cost, so a Computer/3 can run, say, Expert Explosives/3 without wasting any space for the Intellect software. Looking at it (especially in light of the wording under Intellect software itself) with half a cup of coffee, I think it needs better writing and an example...
 
I'll take full blame here. My goal was to make the Traveller's own skillset more important than how many gadgets could fit in a bandolier of specialist computers.

Keeping in mind this was turned in 30 months ago, and I'm not sure what I had for dinner last week - no, not turkey, though that would have been a good guess. You still have to buy the Expert skill-specific package - which is then written into ROM or something because you can't change packages, but what you get is either Intelligent Interface or Intellect at no bandwidth or software cost, so a Computer/3 can run, say, Expert Explosives/3 without wasting any space for the Intellect software. Looking at it (especially in light of the wording under Intellect software itself) with half a cup of coffee, I think it needs better writing and an example...
Thank you for fessing up :)

I was presuming that you can only get Intellect/1 built in for that cost.

I understood that you could run a number of simultaneous expert packages equal to the intellect bandwidth (but Intellect/1 will run a single expert system of any bandwidth (e.g. Expert/3).

As the cost of Intelligent Interface and Intellect/1 are quite low, I was going to run an analysis on the cost effectiveness of paying 5x or 10x the cost of the computer to get the 1 bandwidth or credit cost it would otherwise require vs the cost of just buying a computer with 1 extra bandwidth (and paying for the software).

I also presumed that Digital Friend as a specialist Intelligent Interface could be covered within the specialist computer modification as well. Freeing up 2 bandwidth would almost certainly be better than buying a better computer.

I would also suggest a cap on the Expert systems ability to give a skilled character +1. Presently there doesn't seem to be any relationship between the skill the +1 will give you vs the level of the expert package.

Unless I am missing something I can buy Expert/1 for a few hundred bucks and it will make a skill 0 character skill 1 but also a skill 3 character skill 4. That seems to be a bit cheap and I am not sure that an Expert/1 package would really be much benefit to a Skill 3 character.

Perhaps expert packages giving a +1 is too much anyway. You could instead treat them in the same way as a human helper under the Working Together rules (and one less rule is one less rule to go wrong), with them making their own task check in the skill chain. The human has to make the final check meaning tech can assist you, but it can't replace you.
 
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IMTU I allow the /bis specialty available for any single package, not just jump. If someone wants a computer that is specialized for targeting/evasion/launch control, they can have it, as long as they're willing to pay the extra 50% for the 5BW boost.
Though cheap for the typical adventure class ship, that extra 50% gets pretty costly on a core computer.
 
Completed my analysis for the Intelligent variant. As the Comp/2 runs 2 TLs higher than the Comp/1 and is twice the price at its optimum TL it is always 8 times more expensive at any TL that it is available. As the Intellect is only 5 times more expensive it is always better to buy the specialist computer if you just want an Expert/1 skill to give +1 to a single skill you already have.

Since the cost of the interface software does not diminish by TL, by TL13, it costs more than the computer to run it. I didn't bother running it for the Intellect variant at all as the Cr2000 easily swamps the cost of the computer even at TL10 (which is the earliest you can buy a TL/2 without reporting to prototypes) meaning the specialist computer is significantly cheaper.

If however you want more than one Expert package to be available it would usually be cheaper to buy the Comp/2 and load each package as necessary rather than have multiple specialist Computers. However at higher TLs the Computer/1 becomes so small and cheap that you can envisage multiple dedicated specialised computers. At TL15 you could buy almost a dozen specialist Computer/1 running Intellect at less than Cr10 each for the same price as a single Computer/2 running intelligent. As they are chip sized, you could carry them all in your pocket (or wear them as rings - oooh magic +1 rings in Traveller!!!) ready loaded with Expert/1 software and access them one at a time when necessary.

Since each Expert/1 package costs buttons, it wouldn't cost too much to have an Expert/1 package for every skill you have (especially as you won't be buying specialisms) so you always get the +1.

The future is so bright, I gotta wear shades :)
 
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Completed my analysis for the Intelligent variant. As the Comp/2 runs 2 TLs higher than the Comp/1 and is twice the price at its optimum TL it is always 8 times more expensive at any TL that it is available. As the Intellect is only 5 times more expensive it is always better to buy the specialist computer if you just want an Expert/1 skill to give +1 to a single skill you already have.

Since the cost of the interface software does not diminish by TL, by TL13, it costs more than the computer to run it. I didn't bother running it for the Intellect variant at all as the Cr2000 easily swamps the cost of the computer even at TL10 (which is the earliest you can buy a TL/2 without reporting to prototypes) meaning the specialist computer is significantly cheaper.

If however you want more than one Expert package to be available it would usually be cheaper to buy the Comp/2 and load each package as necessary rather than have multiple specialist Computers. However at higher TLs the Computer/1 becomes so small and cheap that you can envisage multiple dedicated specialised computers. At TL15 you could buy almost a dozen specialist Computer/1 running Intellect at less than Cr10 each for the same price as a single Computer/2 running intelligent. As they are chip sized, you could carry them all in your pocket (or wear them as rings - oooh magic +1 rings in Traveller!!!) ready loaded with Expert/1 software and access them one at a time when necessary.

Since each Expert/1 package costs buttons, it wouldn't cost too much to have an Expert/1 package for every skill you have (especially as you won't be buying specialisms) so you always get the +1.

The future is so bright, I gotta wear shades :)
I assume you mean 'magic' shades? :cool:
 
Completed my analysis for the Intelligent variant. As the Comp/2 runs 2 TLs higher than the Comp/1 and is twice the price at its optimum TL it is always 8 times more expensive at any TL that it is available. As the Intellect is only 5 times more expensive it is always better to buy the specialist computer if you just want an Expert/1 skill to give +1 to a single skill you already have.

Since the cost of the interface software does not diminish by TL, by TL13, it costs more than the computer to run it. I didn't bother running it for the Intellect variant at all as the Cr2000 easily swamps the cost of the computer even at TL10 (which is the earliest you can buy a TL/2 without reporting to prototypes) meaning the specialist computer is significantly cheaper.

If however you want more than one Expert package to be available it would usually be cheaper to buy the Comp/2 and load each package as necessary rather than have multiple specialist Computers. However at higher TLs the Computer/1 becomes so small and cheap that you can envisage multiple dedicated specialised computers. At TL15 you could buy almost a dozen specialist Computer/1 running Intellect at less than Cr10 each for the same price as a single Computer/2 running intelligent. As they are chip sized, you could carry them all in your pocket (or wear them as rings - oooh magic +1 rings in Traveller!!!) ready loaded with Expert/1 software and access them one at a time when necessary.

Since each Expert/1 package costs buttons, it wouldn't cost too much to have an Expert/1 package for every skill you have (especially as you won't be buying specialisms) so you always get the +1.

The future is so bright, I gotta wear shades :)
Yeah, I like your Task Chain idea for using the Expert skill programs. Prevents (or at least slows down) stuff like that. ("Oh, wait, just let me put on my Coat of Many Experts™ and pair it with my Nose Ring of Omniscience® and we're off to adventure!") Except the 'magic items' eventually become dime store (yeah, they used to be called that) items in the clearance bin by TL15 - just have to fight off the dust mites, not Space Orks (probably a Trademark - Gas Giant Goblins (is the gas or the goblin giant?) Space dwarfs? No wait, that's the Geonee.)
 
I assume you mean 'magic' shades? :cool:
Oh yes. TL15 Nikon-Zeiss cyber-shades that incorporate a head up display and massively parallel processing Intelligent Expert hosting system capable of supporting 16* discrete Expert/1 packages (or 8 if you want the Intellect version). Cr300 - expert software not included.

Just checked and buying them in Collace means I am making a broker roll at +5 for availability so they are as common as MP3 players :)

* Enough dedicated computers for every skill you can buy an Expert system in except Astrogation because that is very niche and Profession because who wants to wear cool shades and work as a shop assistant. (Total cost of software Cr3100 if my maths is correct).
 
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Oh yes. TL15 Nikon-Zeiss cyber-shades that incorporate a head up display and massively parallel processing Intelligent Expert hosting system capable of supporting 16* discrete Expert/1 packages (or 8 if you want the Intellect version). Cr300 - expert software not included.
Of course that only gives you a bonus on tasks that are Difficult or easier. But still very useful for the standard tasks.
 
I feel those TN limits are too low - I think in my game I'll lower the threshold by 2 so Expert/1 only helps up to Average tasks
 
Of course that only gives you a bonus on tasks that are Difficult or easier. But still very useful for the standard tasks.
Certainly if you don't have the skill the Expert system is capped, but I am not sure the +1 you get from any level of Expert system if you already have the skill is impacted by the level of difficulty of the task. You might have skill 3 already yourself for example.

I think it probably should be and if the rule was changed so that the Expert System was only adding in to the task chain it would not be able to contribute to a skill above it's capacity.

Yup, that mechanism is looking better every time :)
 
I'll take full blame here. My goal was to make the Traveller's own skillset more important than how many gadgets could fit in a bandolier of specialist computers.

Keeping in mind this was turned in 30 months ago, and I'm not sure what I had for dinner last week - no, not turkey, though that would have been a good guess. You still have to buy the Expert skill-specific package - which is then written into ROM or something because you can't change packages, but what you get is either Intelligent Interface or Intellect at no bandwidth or software cost, so a Computer/3 can run, say, Expert Explosives/3 without wasting any space for the Intellect software. Looking at it (especially in light of the wording under Intellect software itself) with half a cup of coffee, I think it needs better writing and an example...
So would this example work?:

Specialised Computer/3 for expert Intellect/Military Tactics, Size=Computer Chip:
Runs Military Tactics Expert/3 via Intellect thus gives a skill of Military Tactics-2 for the Intellect or
can add +1 DM to a user who already has the skill (only worth it if they have 2+ skill and a cheaper computer/expert can do this)
Costs: Cr1250 (1,000*.125*10)
TL: 15

Software Required:
Intellect/1 Cr2,00
Expert: Tactics(Military)/3 Cr10,000 (100*100)

Total Cost: Cr13,250 TL15
 
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I'll take full blame here. My goal was to make the Traveller's own skillset more important than how many gadgets could fit in a bandolier of specialist computers.

Keeping in mind this was turned in 30 months ago, and I'm not sure what I had for dinner last week - no, not turkey, though that would have been a good guess. You still have to buy the Expert skill-specific package - which is then written into ROM or something because you can't change packages, but what you get is either Intelligent Interface or Intellect at no bandwidth or software cost, so a Computer/3 can run, say, Expert Explosives/3 without wasting any space for the Intellect software. Looking at it (especially in light of the wording under Intellect software itself) with half a cup of coffee, I think it needs better writing and an example...
If you are going to clarify how Intelligent and Intellect Interfaces interact with Specialized Computers, could you also look at dropping in a version of Digital Friend based on Intellect? And maybe review the Personal Trainer (CSC p71) as well? Right now it is a specialized 'Digital Friend', but for 1 less bandwidth.

Also, robot brains at higher TLs come with certain (zero bandwidth) software for free -- typically an 'Expert' package; a 'Security' package; and an 'Interface' package. The interface package is either Intelligent or Intellect -- could we get some 'Digital Friend' equivalents for each, please?
 
If you are going to clarify how Intelligent and Intellect Interfaces interact with Specialized Computers, could you also look at dropping in a version of Digital Friend based on Intellect? And maybe review the Personal Trainer (CSC p71) as well? Right now it is a specialized 'Digital Friend', but for 1 less bandwidth.

Also, robot brains at higher TLs come with certain (zero bandwidth) software for free -- typically an 'Expert' package; a 'Security' package; and an 'Interface' package. The interface package is either Intelligent or Intellect -- could we get some 'Digital Friend' equivalents for each, please?
Your are talking Marvin aren't you :)

I think that EXPERT/x entry is not well written. I thought it was just used to indicate the maximum difficulty the robot could attempt rather than an indication it came with a free unspecified expert package.

All software bought for Robots is effectively Expert software as otherwise the robot wouldn't be able to use it (and there would be no point installing it) I am not sure what Intelligent interface really means with respect to a Robot, since it only enables you to run expert packages for skills you already have at least skill 0 in and Robots have no inherent skills (unless the intent is that you require the skill from some dedicated piece of hardware).
 
I am not sure what Intelligent interface really means with respect to a Robot, since it only enables you to run expert packages for skills you already have at least skill 0 in and Robots have no inherent skills (unless the intent is that you require the skill from some dedicated piece of hardware).
It means Intelligent User Interface, Man-Machine Interface or Human-Machine Interface. The interface does not affect the compute abilities of the computer, merely affects the ability to communicate with users sat Infront of the screen.
 
So would this example work?:

Specialised Computer/3 for expert Intellect/Military Tactics, Size=Computer Chip:
Runs Military Tactics Expert/3 via Intellect thus gives a skill of Military Tactics-2 for the Intellect or
can add +1 DM to a user who already has the skill (only worth it if they have 2+ skill and a cheaper computer/expert can do this)
Costs: Cr1250 (1,000*.125*10)
TL: 15

Software Required:
Intellect/1 Cr2,00
Expert: Tactics(Military)/3 Cr10,000 (100*100)

Total Cost: Cr13,250 TL15
I think I didn't weigh in because it looks correct to me.

But... the thing that is left unstated in the rules is whether the hardwired Intellect is included in the price. I need to start putting more examples in the text. Since you can run Intellect on a specialised computer before it available as a software package, then I would say my intent was that it is included in the price of the hardware. So the Cost would actually be Cr11250.
 
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