MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Well explained! Now my head hurts...
Rules Clarification: Agent Programs (CSCp69)
- Thread starter Yenaldlooshi
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ResslynHalvik
Cosmic Mongoose
The rules in software in both CRB and CSC are near incomprehensible. It's very hard to work out what you can actually do with a Computer/1.
I've got a character with no Electronics skills that I want to give a small portable computer/comms device at TL-11. I just can't work out what he can have that does anything useful.
I've got a character with no Electronics skills that I want to give a small portable computer/comms device at TL-11. I just can't work out what he can have that does anything useful.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah. It is complicated. I tried to do the work for a player who wanted to play a hacker, but My Referee mojo failed, and I couldn't figure it out.
Sarcasm - Can a character with no Electronics skill even use a computer?
Serious question - Do you need to make an Electronics skill check to use an Expert Program?
Expert systems don't require any electronics skill to use, they grant a +1DM if you have a skill (with the Intelligent interface) or grant it at level 0 (with Intellect interface). If you have a specialised computer the Intelligent or Intellect interface doesn't take up any bandwidth. You will need a computer for each package with a Computer/1 as it will require a specialised computer and you cannot swap out the skill package. Computer/2 would allow you to run the interface and Expert(Skill)/1 at the same time and you could swap out the skills software media at will to change the expert package (but see below for a whizzo scheme to overcome this limitation).
Even with -3 for unskilled in Electronics accessing databases is an easy task and shouldn't be too difficult (especially if you can take your time).
Agent can actually substitute Electronics(Computers) for you (and it takes less bandwidth than the equivalent Expert package). This can autonomously run Computer skill checks (trawl data nets, access planetary trade systems or even hack into systems - though they'd need to be pretty poorly protected). Agent-0 is available at TL11 costs very little, takes up no-bandwidth and requires no special interface. It grants Electronics(Computer) 0 and would be an ideal tool for someone with no Electronics skill who still needs to operate computer equipment.
You can of course use a Computer/1 for translation packages and the like as well and any software that only requires a voice command. Personal Trainer can also fit and requires no special interface or skill to use. Certain other equipment can benefit from a computer for storing or analysing data or remotely accessing other computer systems.
Of course a specialised computer running Intellect interface can run Expert Electronics at level 0 and unlocks that limitation.
As we have discussed before a wireless connection to a more substantial computer can allow you to run that computer software remotely. So you could have Intellect interface occupying all the bandwidth on your Computer/1 Mobile Comm and host the actual expert packages on another computer(s) wirelessly. These could be low cost single chip computers. These could be swapped out or upgraded over time without having to upgrade the comm itself, if you lost one it wouldn't be the end of the world.
I had a character that wasted 2 bandwidth on Digital Friend so they had someone to talk to on long journeys. As the package got imprinted it was able to provide auxiliary memory of events that it had been party to as it had perfect recall. That saved a lot of misunderstandings. You could probably achieve the same effect more manually with a lower bandwidth computer. Even without the remote expert systems described above, you could use the language comprehension and automation aspects of the Intellect interface (or maybe even Agent) to take notes and record things acting as a personal organiser, cum secretary (though without the sparkling personality of the Digital Friend).
You could run Digital Friend(s) on remote computers and just use the comm to interface with them (like Ironman uses Jarvis). You could have a cast of thousands (your plastic pals who are fun to be with!). This is more fun than doing it with expert packages. "Hal can you open the door..." You can also instruct robots to do you bidding by remote (and some robots are cheeeeeeeap).
You could have more fun with this than if your character had a better computer and it is an ideal way to improve your character by equipment uplift.
Actually I am doing this for my next character or NPC.
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Limpin Legin
Emperor Mongoose
At the earliest Tech Levels (TL6 - 7) societies, Electronics Researcher skill would have been the only way of operating a computer.
Then there was stuff like high-level programming languages, and
Computer Literacy as an Admin specialisation happened.
Also Windows, Icons, Menus and Pointing Devices (WIMP) meant that nearly everyone could "navigate" such a device.
It helps to start asking what an Expert Program/System really is, before delving into the question.
An Expert System is a computer program that emulates the functioning of a human "expert". It was seen as being the future of AI back in the 70s/80s. However, because of the Expert System Quirks, they fell out of fashion and gave way to modern Large Language Models (LLM), Artificial Neural Networks (ANN) and Decision Support Systems (DSS).
Some of the Expert System quirks are:
Cost of acquiring knowledge from a human "expert."
Exponential increase in size when increasing the expert rulebase.
The difficulty of updating the expert rulebase with new abilities.
Difficulty in verifying rule consistency.
The programming languages of Expert Systems/Programs haven't been learned by successive generations.
Expert Systems might be able to perform as an "expert" in Interpretation, Prediction, Diagnosis, Design, Planning, Monitoring, Debugging, Repair, Instruction, Control. In other words, providing advise to an operations researcher, of some kind. Not really intended for the novice - but hey-ho, this is science fiction, so maybe it will happen that an untrained novice in a specific skill will benefit from such an "Expert" Program. That is kind of happening now, albeit, not with Expert Systems, but with LLM, ANN and DSS.
Also another grey area is the distinction between Intelligent Systems and Expert Systems. Expert Systems only give "advise." Intelligent Systems tend to be machines that are autonomous actors or doers. On the surface, it looks like any Traveller referee could handwave the differences, and just lump everything together as an "Expert Program." Except I wonder if that confuses people on what are the limits (and quirks) of these things are? You could say the answer depends on your type of sci-fi, or you could say that the game needs a more gamified version of what computers and software can do.
Sorry for rambling on.
I don't know that TL7 computers were THAT primitive. That's the 70's 80's and 90's.
TL4 computers were mechanical calculating machines. The early electromechanical and electronic ones of the 40's would be TL5. TL6 era should probably use normal Mongoose rules, but be aware that Electronics itself would be a fairly unusual skill - radar operators, radio technicians, switchboard operators. You might argue that Electronics (Comms) is used to operate a landline telephone or tune an AM/FM radio, but really those are automatic things that don't require a formal skill.
I think it might be sufficient to rule that for equipment below TL6, Electronics does not default to the other specialties at all. So Electronics (Comms) can have a go at operating a TL5 radio, but would need Electronics (Computer) to be considered skilled at operating a TL5 computer. In both cases penalties should be applied (skilled or unskilled) for using gear that is technologically much more primitive than the character is used to.
Language might also come into it. Before the 80's and the arrival of graphical user interfaces, you did need to learn at least a command line language. Although I'd expect that a Traveller character may well have auto translation assistance that can deal with that angle.
TL4 computers were mechanical calculating machines. The early electromechanical and electronic ones of the 40's would be TL5. TL6 era should probably use normal Mongoose rules, but be aware that Electronics itself would be a fairly unusual skill - radar operators, radio technicians, switchboard operators. You might argue that Electronics (Comms) is used to operate a landline telephone or tune an AM/FM radio, but really those are automatic things that don't require a formal skill.
I think it might be sufficient to rule that for equipment below TL6, Electronics does not default to the other specialties at all. So Electronics (Comms) can have a go at operating a TL5 radio, but would need Electronics (Computer) to be considered skilled at operating a TL5 computer. In both cases penalties should be applied (skilled or unskilled) for using gear that is technologically much more primitive than the character is used to.
Language might also come into it. Before the 80's and the arrival of graphical user interfaces, you did need to learn at least a command line language. Although I'd expect that a Traveller character may well have auto translation assistance that can deal with that angle.
The problem, if it is a problem, is that the game does not provide mechanics for the wide range of things that having a computer lets you do that not having a computer does not let you do. I grew up in the era of the microfiche machine and the typewriter and having to go to the library to look at microfiche or newspaper morgues. So I have no problem thinking of lots of things a character can do by having a computer that they can't do if they don't have one.
As for the difference between Computer/0 and Computer/1...there's a lot I can do on my desktop computer that I cannot do on my tablet.
Is there very much of that stuff which will have a specific application requiring a die roll during an adventure? Probably not. But that depends on the kind of adventure you are running.
As for the difference between Computer/0 and Computer/1...there's a lot I can do on my desktop computer that I cannot do on my tablet.
Is there very much of that stuff which will have a specific application requiring a die roll during an adventure? Probably not. But that depends on the kind of adventure you are running.
Regardless, my computer is substantially more powerful than my tablet. Maybe there are tablets out there that run high end 3D design & CAD programs, but you wouldn't expect them to. Is that worth modelling in the game, though? That's not the sort of activity you normally think about adventurers spending time on doing.
Honestly, part of the problem is that we act like every iteration of a thing still exists as a commercial product. I can't walk into the store and pick up a Commodore 64. So it's kind of like "are you buying a TL11 computer? It's Computer/1. There probably isn't any Computer/0 still being commercially made on TL11 world. They've all gone the way of the Commodore 64.
The game effectively has the equivalent of the Commodore 64 and the iMac4 in the rules together because you might be on a world where the C64 is state of the art. But the player doesn't care that the graphics on Sonic the Hedgehog's C64 version is not comparable to the most recent version. Because it is their character playing Sonic the Hedgehog to pass the time. The differences between the two don't matter.
And that's ultimately going to be true for most applications of a computer in Traveller. Especially since most of the time the TL is the modifier, not the power of the machine. So as long as I have a TL11 computer I can hack like a mofo, even if its stats wise a Commodore 64.
Honestly, part of the problem is that we act like every iteration of a thing still exists as a commercial product. I can't walk into the store and pick up a Commodore 64. So it's kind of like "are you buying a TL11 computer? It's Computer/1. There probably isn't any Computer/0 still being commercially made on TL11 world. They've all gone the way of the Commodore 64.
The game effectively has the equivalent of the Commodore 64 and the iMac4 in the rules together because you might be on a world where the C64 is state of the art. But the player doesn't care that the graphics on Sonic the Hedgehog's C64 version is not comparable to the most recent version. Because it is their character playing Sonic the Hedgehog to pass the time. The differences between the two don't matter.
And that's ultimately going to be true for most applications of a computer in Traveller. Especially since most of the time the TL is the modifier, not the power of the machine. So as long as I have a TL11 computer I can hack like a mofo, even if its stats wise a Commodore 64.
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Emperor Mongoose
You can order a new C64 now (a fan bought the rights and the Commodore name) and is producing a C64 Ultimate.I can't walk into the store and pick up a Commodore 64.
Well, since a Computer/0 still has unlimited storage they really aren't the equivalent of a C64. It's more a case of "this is what we use for any minimum level computer product in the baseline Traveller interstellar community". ACTUAL primitive computers are more of a prototech matter, or should be considered their own items. We don't conflate black powder handgonnes with repeating rifles, after all, even if they might use similar rules.
Edit:
Probably a TL7 Computer/0 is more along the lines of a 90's or 00's desktop. That feels about right to me. You *can* buy them at TL8+ but it's not clear why you would bother. Some specific higher tech gear is Computer/0, but that's stuff like computer weave and intelligent weapons.
Edit:
Probably a TL7 Computer/0 is more along the lines of a 90's or 00's desktop. That feels about right to me. You *can* buy them at TL8+ but it's not clear why you would bother. Some specific higher tech gear is Computer/0, but that's stuff like computer weave and intelligent weapons.
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If you say so, but that's not what the rules say. Those are our portable computers (laptops) today. Computer/0 and Computer/1. Mid sized computers (desk tops and servers) are a TL lower than these.
But that's not really the point. The point is that people are not buying Desktop Computer/0 now that Desktop Computer/1 (or whatever ratings you want to give them) exist. The hobbyists buying C64s are not doing so to use them as workstations. They are using them for nostalgia and to use outdated software that is difficult to run on a modern computer.
If you are on a TL12 world and you buy a laptop, it's going to be a Computer/3.
Obviously, Traveller doesn't want to get into the weedy details on this topic, so they just sort of handwave interoperability and storage because that's tedious and annoying, the sort of thing the players would deal with at the starport before going on the adventure, like you buy a power adaptor before going overseas.
And it only cares about the few types of programs that are going to actually modify die rolls. But the difference between a Computer/0 and a Computer/1 would be extremely obvious to the actual user, even if not the player. Whether you want to reflect that in your game or not is up to you. The rules just focus on if you get a +1 on a roll or not.
But that's not really the point. The point is that people are not buying Desktop Computer/0 now that Desktop Computer/1 (or whatever ratings you want to give them) exist. The hobbyists buying C64s are not doing so to use them as workstations. They are using them for nostalgia and to use outdated software that is difficult to run on a modern computer.
If you are on a TL12 world and you buy a laptop, it's going to be a Computer/3.
Obviously, Traveller doesn't want to get into the weedy details on this topic, so they just sort of handwave interoperability and storage because that's tedious and annoying, the sort of thing the players would deal with at the starport before going on the adventure, like you buy a power adaptor before going overseas.
And it only cares about the few types of programs that are going to actually modify die rolls. But the difference between a Computer/0 and a Computer/1 would be extremely obvious to the actual user, even if not the player. Whether you want to reflect that in your game or not is up to you. The rules just focus on if you get a +1 on a roll or not.
Well, there is a significant threshold between /0 and /1 or better, in that a Computer/0 can run one bandwidth 0 program at a time, but the others can run as many bandwidth 0 programs as desired. And is one of the reasons why, although you can technically buy a cheaper, smaller computer/0 at TL8, you rarely would bother (except for the wearable end of gear, as described). Just get a Computer/1. There IS however a cost saving reason to buy a Computer/1 at TL9 if you're only intending to run low grade programs on it.
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