Rules Clarification: Agent Programs (CSCp69)

[Limpin Legin]

I'm not sure where the confusion lies, aside from the listings in the Core Book being very compact.

Have you seen the cost differences?

There are no feature differences between these price points, yet the price difference are wide. (See @Yenaldlooshi 's calculations on this thread.)

Why does someone with skill 0 get an expert program capped at expert skill 1 when an untrained user (skill -3) gets expert skill +3? Surely a Traveller with skill 0 also wants expert skill 3?

To cut a longer discussion short, item descriptions don't appear to be doing what "expert" or "agent" means in comp sci.

Similar with "clusters " but that's discussed elsewhere.

These words are in current use at TL7/8. Traveller should be using established words consistently. TL11 sci-fi envisages more tasks accomplished by machine but these inconsistencies crop up here and on discord.

 

[rinku]

I think one of the things you may be missing is that the Expert programs only give their bandwidth minus one as the skill for untrained characters and Intellect programs. Expert-2 won't give them a better skill than even a Skill-0 character running the cheaper software.

Yes, if an untrained character is using CR100,000 TL13 Expert/3 software they get skill-2 and are better than a skill-0 character running the same program. But not a skill-1 one, and worse than a skill-2 one. Although those characters can just run the cheapo software for the same deal. And since it requires bandwidth 4 and a TL13 computer to run this, honestly that unskilled character is really just guiding a bot that has the actual expertise.

If this super bothers you, maybe let the Expert/3 program give a +2 to trained users, or impose a cap on the difficulty of a task that an unskilled character using Expert software can attempt, same as if they were an Intellect program running the same Expert program.

As far as I can see, the higher skill expert programs are mostly intended for Intellect software use. Those only get pricey if they are running more than one Expert program at once.

And further note that Agent programs perform at bandwidth, not bandwidth-1 but are specifically limited to Electronics (Computer) tasks. To compare them to Intellect programs you need to take that into account. Electronics (Computer)-0 is Cr500 for an Agent but Cr3000 and 2 bandwidth for an Intellect. The next levels are Cr2000 and Cr12,000 (plus bandwidth 3). The next levels are Cr100,000 and Cr102,000. Only the Agent program can achieve skill-3, for Cr250,000 at TL14.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

I think one of the things you may be missing is that the Expert programs only give their bandwidth minus one as the skill for untrained characters and Intellect programs. Expert-2 won't give them a better skill than even a Skill-0 character running the cheaper software.

Nope not missing a thing. That point has been brought up multiple times.

Yes, if an untrained character is using CR100,000 TL13 Expert/3 software they get skill-2 and are better than a skill-0 character running the same program. But not a skill-1 one, and worse than a skill-2 one. Although those characters can just run the cheapo software for the same deal. And since it requires bandwidth 4 and a TL13 computer to run this, honestly that unskilled character is really just guiding a bot that has the actual expertise.

What Expert is Cr100,000? I think you are thinking first edition. Cr10,000-Cr50,000 is the norm in 2e. I only ever talk 2e unless I specifically mention 1e. Sorry.

If this super bothers you, maybe let the Expert/3 program give a +2 to trained users, or impose a cap on the difficulty of a task that an unskilled character using Expert software can attempt, same as if they were an Intellect program running the same Expert program.

No one cares about that. It's about confusion and redundancy. I am looking for consistency. I actually prefer the Level 2 cap on expert+intellect.

As far as I can see, the higher skill expert programs are mostly intended for Intellect software use. Those only get pricey if they are running more than one Expert program at once.

This is true. Honestly, unless you have a particular scenario where your Intellect needs to do two things in tandem, Intellect 2-3 seem like they may never get used.

And further note that Agent programs perform at bandwidth, not bandwidth-1 but are specifically limited to Electronics (Computer) tasks. To compare them to Intellect programs you need to take that into account. Electronics (Computer)-0 is Cr500 for an Agent but Cr3000 and 2 bandwidth for an Intellect. The next levels are Cr2000 and Cr12,000 (plus bandwidth 3). The next levels are Cr100,000 and Cr102,000. Only the Agent program can achieve skill-3, for Cr250,000 at TL14.

Again, check CSCupdate2023, page70,
Expert(electronics)/1 is only Cr100+2000 for intellect/1= Cr2100= skill 0 =2BW
Expert(electronics)/2 is Cr1000+2000 for intellect/1= Cr3000= skill 1= 3BW
Expert(electronics)/3 is Cr10000+2000 for intellect/1= Cr12,000= skill 2= 4BW

Agent breaks down exactly like it's chart: 500/2000/100000/250000, and skill 0/1/2/3 and bw 0/1/2/3

OK! now we have all the costs, bw and skill levels given!... and I knew all of this already when I posted, btw.

Other than the Skill 3 that Agent can give for Cr250K and fact that it can do all these for lesser bandwidth than an Intellect-Expert combo, why does this exist? What value does it add to the game that the expert-intellect does not? I KNOW HOW IT WORKS. I have little confusion over how the rules mechanics work for these items, my problem is that it is redundant to the needs of the game. We don't really need a special case AI version of Electronics(Computers) automation that works under different rules that intellect/expert, and needs a different name do we? Why do we not have special alternatives for all the expert skills? Why just this one?

I titled my post "Rules Clarification" because I worried that how I understood the rules might be incorrect, and someone would hopefully point this out. After reading all the posts, I realize I was exactly correct and at this point, my question/comments are about rules design, not how does it work.

Anyway, thanks for the responses!

 

[rinku]

I got my data from the current download of the 2e22 CRB:


I don't have access to the current version or CSC at work.

As far as Agent vs Intellect/Expert Electronics (Computer)... um, the first one is cheaper and uses less bandwidth. That's why it exists. But the Intellect program can use other skills. The 2 bandwidth less is non-trivial.

Oh!

I just checked the 2e23 CSC I do have access to. It's very confusing, but okay.

I see what you're seeing now.

It has the hallmarks of something that made sense, but someone thought was overpriced and overhauled... but without all the consequences of that change being followed up.

Or a typo.

Given that the costings make sense in CRB but not CSC, I'm inclined to say the CSC table is off by a factor of 10.

 

[swordtart]

Like I said at Post #10. Expert software seems to have been overhauled in CSC to make it more nuanced (rather than all skills costing the same) and took a factor 10 drop in the process.

It would make sense that this was an error (as we have had several iterations of the CRB which retain the simple KCr1, KCr10 and KCr100 levels - as well as both CRB and CSC of 1 edition). There have been a number of related threads Expert systems being a bit cheap compared to other equipment, and probably far too cheap for a +1 on a skill check, but it has been used in the Robot Handbook as well, so it may be deliberate.

If not an error there needs to be a lot of errata to correct all the other similar things that were not overhauled at the same time.

 

[rinku]

I wonder if the Robot Handbook is partially to blame here? Since the Expert skill listing there is intended for robot brains, not general computers, it may well have been a deliberate decision to reduce the costs for bots. Then, CSC revision gets done and copies the robot skills instead of restoring the cost for regular computers?

I think I'm right that the publication sequence was 2022 Core, Robot Handbook then 2023 CSC revision?

 

[Geir]

I think I'm right that the publication sequence was 2022 Core, Robot Handbook then 2023 CSC revision?

That's the correct order, and I suppose I'm to blame for any mess introduced by Robots (CSC 2023, too, but a lot of that was copied updated from the earlier one). There was a conscious attempt to make the the skills of preexisting robots match their new versions and the design sequence, and keep the cost close, if possible.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Given that the costings make sense in CRB but not CSC, I'm inclined to say the CSC table is off by a factor of 10.

I got my data from the current download of the 2e22 CRB:
View attachment 4782

I don't have access to the current version or CSC at work.

As far as Agent vs Intellect/Expert Electronics (Computer)... um, the first one is cheaper and uses less bandwidth. That's why it exists. But the Intellect program can use other skills. The 2 bandwidth less is non-trivial.

Oh!

I just checked the 2e23 CSC I do have access to. It's very confusing, but okay.

I see what you're seeing now.

It has the hallmarks of something that made sense, but someone thought was overpriced and overhauled... but without all the consequences of that change being followed up.

Or a typo.

Given that the costings make sense in CRB but not CSC, I'm inclined to say the CSC table is off by a factor of 10.

Wow, I see it too. I have the CRB2022(updated 11-12-2024, the one with the dude on the cover) and the numbers match yours Cr100,000 for Expert/3

Something is a typo.

 

[Geir]

Wow, I see it too. I have the CRB2022(updated 11-12-2024, the one with the dude on the cover) and the numbers match yours Cr100,000 for Expert/3

Something is a typo.

Or an oversight or an intentional lack of convergence for simplicity.

I looked back at my docs for both CSC and Robots, and they match, and they are cheaper by a factor of up to 10 for most skills (the unlisted ones are still Cr1000 for Expert/1, so that corresponds). I didn't comment on it before the last revision of the Core book was released, mainly because I didn't remember it was changed. Or changed depending on the skill. So did the Core book need another table? That's an editorial decision, and I can't necessarily say that adding the table would be a great use of a half page.

So my lame suggestion is pick a lane: either treat every skill as Cr1000 for Expert/1 or use the CSC table, but be consistent within your game.

But remember, if you don't have the skill, it's at Skill-1 - and you need Intellect (which is also expensive), so the first iteration in the hundreds of credits for the skill only gets you skill 0. And robots have their brain for the Intellect part. The whole thing is a little too convoluted to do without an example in the book(s).

[There are flow-charts in Robots for how controls and hacks work - maybe this needs a flowchart too, or maybe, if it needs a flowchart, it really needs a re-write.]

But... I'm really tired tonight, so my logic could be a little flawed.

 

[rinku]

No worries. I think I'll probably go with Robot table for robots and bump up the CSC pricing for mere Intellect programs and meatsacks. It's pretty clear that the higher level skill ratings are only of real benefit to Intellect programs.

There's an edge case to consider for Nobby No Skill and rating 3, but that's a very expensive way for them to outperform someone with actual skill-0. Betty Skill Level One does just as well with a cheap level 1 Expert, and Freddy Skill Level Two is better with the same.

 

[swordtart]

Another consideration is that if you are using Expert for a DM+1 you can apply your stat bonus. If you are letting the Expert package do the work autonomously for you there is less justification for allowing your intelligence or education to influence the outcome. It depends if you argue that putting in the correct prompt is a significant factor in completing a task.

As for costs, I'd be inclined to just bump the cost multiplier in CSC and RH by 10.

That makes my default skill enhancing dedicated expert chips Cr1000's rather than Cr100's and that seems more reasonable compared to the other equipment that is providing DM+1.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Question for everyone bringing up Robots. Please first understand that I know little about that book even though I own it. I have yet to actually dive into it.

So here it is.... How bad would it be to say that Experts for Robots need to go at the CRB rate? ie. 100,000k for Expert/3?

 

[Geir]

Question for everyone bringing up Robots. Please first understand that I know little about that book even though I own it. I have yet to actually dive into it.

So here it is.... How bad would it be to say that Experts for Robots need to go at the CRB rate? ie. 100,000k for Expert/3?

Robot brains themselves are the Expert and Intellect part, so it's built-in the cost of the particular brain.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Robot brains themselves are the Expert and Intellect part, so it's built-in the cost of the particular brain.
View attachment 4793

So, since they don't mention it, can conscious intelligences act as Expert/? as well? Expert/4?

 

[Geir]

So, since they don't mention it, can conscious intelligences act as Expert/? as well? Expert/4?

Cumulative, it says on top. So Expert/3 in theory, but they're definitely more like people (organic sophonts?) at that point.
Mostly, I think I didn't want the table to wrap...

 

[Terry Mixon]

Cumulative, it says on top. So Expert/3 in theory, but they're definitely more like people (organic sophonts?) at that point.
Mostly, I think I didn't want the table to wrap...

Thanks. I missed that. Not that I expect Vision to be an expert program. I was just curious.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Robot brains themselves are the Expert and Intellect part, so it's built-in the cost of the particular brain.

It doesn't really discuss it from what I could find but does "Expert/3" for Self Aware just mean you can pick a skill of the skill list for Expert, and you have that at level 3 with no cost vs bandwidth? Can I get 3 level 1's as basic?

 

[swordtart]

It would be safer to mentally decouple the word Expert in RH from CSC Expert packages.

There are already disconnects as robot Expert software can provide physical skills as well as intellectual (for which a human would require a Neural Jack). Basic Brains can have Profession skill levels up to level 2 and don't have any Expert, Intellect or Intelligent interfaces at all (and don't have the bandwidth for them). I am not sure what Intelligent interface even means in terms of a robot, (unless it means the robot can only use software to gain DM+1 on a skill it has acquired through a component but that doesn't seem to be the case based on the example Robots).

Expert/x for robots just provides the cap on the difficulty of skill that the robot can handle. It is not an Expert package itself and provides no free skills (either in cost or bandwidth). The bandwidth of a brain determines the bandwidth of any programs that can be run.

Reading across will only create inconsistency.

 

[Geir]

It doesn't really discuss it from what I could find but does "Expert/3" for Self Aware just mean you can pick a skill of the skill list for Expert, and you have that at level 3 with no cost vs bandwidth? Can I get 3 level 1's as basic?

It just means you don't have to use any bandwidth or cost for the Expert skill itself. A Basic brain, if that's what you mean, can't have any skills off the list, just a basic package for customization .

It would be safer to mentally decouple the word Expert in RH from CSC Expert packages.

There are already disconnects as robot Expert software can provide physical skills as well as intellectual (for which a human would require a Neural Jack). Basic Brains can have Profession skill levels up to level 2 and don't have any Expert, Intellect or Intelligent interfaces at all (and don't have the bandwidth for them). I am not sure what Intelligent interface even means in terms of a robot, (unless it means the robot can only use software to gain DM+1 on a skill it has acquired through a component but that doesn't seem to be the case based on the example Robots).

Expert/x for robots just provides the cap on the difficulty of skill that the robot can handle. It is not an Expert package itself and provides no free skills (either in cost or bandwidth). The bandwidth of a brain determines the bandwidth of any programs that can be run.

Correct

Reading across will only create inconsistency.

True enough.