Expert program: Is the DM+1 for skilled Travellers limited by package level? (CSC23 p70)

[ArchPsion]

We have a debate in our group,
The rules about expert programs start with this paragraph:

Expert software packages allow a computer to mimic a specific skill – which must be specified when the software
package is purchased. However, the package can only help if the difficulty of the task is within its parameters.
Expert/1 allows Difficult (10+) tasks to be attempted, while Expert/2 allows Very Difficult (12+) tasks to be tried.
Expert/3 is required for Formidable (14+) tasks.

And then they split to 2 use cases:

If a user already has at least level 0 of a skill, then any level Expert package grants DM+1 to their skill check.

A user without the specified skill can use an Expert package with Intellect (Bandwidth 1+) software to
make a skill check as if they had the skill at the Expert software’s Bandwidth -1.

Half of our group thinks the rules as intended is that the package level only limits the second case (An untrained traveller must have an expert/3 to attempt a formidable task, but a trained traveller only needs an expert/1 software to get the DM+1 bonus)

The other half believes that the limitation applies for the DM+1 also (If a trained traveller attempts a formidable check, an expert/3 program is required to get the DM+1, and a lower level software won't help at all)

We were all wondering if anyone can clarify the intention of the rules for us?

 

[Arkathan]

Core '22 pg 111

Expert software packages mimic skills. A Traveller using
Expert may make a skill check as if they had the skill at the
software’s Bandwidth -1. Only INT and EDU-based checks
can be attempted. If a Traveller already has the skill, then
Expert grants DM+1 to their check.

 

[swordtart]

I have been rationalising it as the expert package comes with a database system. If you use the expert package it uses the database and it's routines to come up with the answer. If a Skill-0 traveller uses an Expert package they are just leveraging that database part (which is why it doesn't matter what level the expert is at). If you use Expert-3 of course the Skill-0 traveller can let the expert package do the work at Skill-2. rather than do it themselves at Skill-1. Once you have kill-1 and above you have outstripped the expert package and the only benefit is allowing it to run in the background while you do something else.

 

[Limpin Legin]

(Sorry if I am duplicating something you already understand, I just wanted to give some context to the question.)
Rules:

• The limitation refers to Task Difficulty (CRB Update22, p60-61) at which the software is capped.
• CRB 22 refers to Task Difficulties as being Simple, Easy, Routine, Average, Difficult, Very Difficult, Formidable and Impossible. The referee sets the Task Difficulty according to how they assess the challenge in completing the task.
• A player will roll a 2D to attempt to get a score higher or equal to the Task Difficulty. Task Difficulties are made easier by having skill in a relevant area.
• Expert S/W (CSC23, p70) can be bought to assist with completing certain tasks, BUT they are only useful for Task Difficulties of Simple up to Difficult, Very Difficult and Formidable Skill Checks (for Expert/1, Expert2, Expert/3). So, if referee sets a Formidable skill check, and the Travellers have only got access to an Expert/1 or Expert/2 S/W, then the Expert package cannot assist in any way.

First use case:

• If user has their own skill of level 0+, then Expert/n package grants extra +1 DM (per Expert/n level??). (CSC23, p70). Requirements: Intelligent Interface OR Digital Friend.

Second use case:

• User without the specified skill, then Expert/n package grants (+n-1) DM as if the user had that skill level (ie, NO DM-3 penalty). Requirements: Intellect/1+

Conclusion:

• Understand if the Expert package can operate at the Task Difficulty that the referee has set.
• Understand if user has access to the Expert package via either Intelligent Interface, Digital Friend or Intellect, as the usefulness of these packages are different for skilled and unskilled users.
• The dice are rolled and the Dice Modifier is added to the score, before the relevant check is made. The actual DM will be different, depending on whether the user operating the expert S?W has relevant skill:
  • Skilled user with Skill/m using Expert/n will have either DM(m+n) OR DM(m+1), depending on how you adjudicate.
  • Unskilled user with no skill training for the Task Check (using Expert/n) will have total DM(n-1).
• I cannot see how an unskilled user + expert S/W can have higher DM than a skilled user + same expert S/W.
  • So, I would tend to suspect error in the relevant paragraph in CSC23, p70. Because, otherwise an unskilled user with Expert/3 would be granted DM+2, while a skill/0 user would be granted only DM+1, which is kinda absurd.

 

[Fresnel]

Case 1: User with Edu +1 Engineer 0, computer with Intelligent Interface and Expert/3

Task Difficulty: 16: Computer system cannot help
Task Difficulty: 14: User Rolls 2D and adds 1 Edu + 0 Skill + 1 Expert, total 2

Case 2: User with Edu +1 Engineer Unskilled, computer with Intellect/1 and Expert/3

Task Difficulty: 16: Computer system cannot help
Task Difficulty: 14: User Rolls 2D and adds 1 Edu + 2 Expert, total 3

I rationalise the Edu addition as the User being better able to follow instructions.

 

[Fresnel]

Case 3: User with Edu +1 Engineer 0, computer with Intellect/1 and Expert/3

Task Difficulty: 16: Computer system cannot help
Task Difficulty: 14: User Rolls 2D and adds 1 Edu + 1 Expert, total 2

This is the RAW. However, as the Referee I would allow the user to defer entirely to the AI and get a +3 DM.

 

[swordtart]

• If user has their own skill of level 0+, then Expert/n package grants extra +1 DM (per Expert/n level??). (CSC23, p70). Requirements: Intelligent Interface OR Digital Friend.

You get +1 regardless of the level of expert package.

• I cannot see how an unskilled user + expert S/W can have higher DM than a skilled user + same expert S/W.
  • So, I would tend to suspect error in the relevant paragraph in CSC23, p70. Because, otherwise an unskilled user with Expert/3 would be granted DM+2, while a skill/0 user would be granted only DM+1, which is kinda absurd.

A skill 0 user is still allowed to trust the computer to do the work instead and gain the +2 DM.

Someone with a negative INT/EDU DM and low skill might be better off letting the computer do it or their muddle-headedness or lack of experience might cause them to do a worse job. There have been several air crashes that resulted from the pilot mistakenly trying to override the autopilot because he didn't understand what it was trying to do.

Expert 3 is very expensive, requires an additional expensive interface and requires a lot of bandwidth and much higher TL for the system. If you are level 0 (basic training) why would you expect your deductions to be better than a hight TL computer system costing KCr10's.

Skilled users get the extra flexibility as they can add their INT or EDU bonus. (Personally I don't allow you to add INT/EDU if the computer is doing the work itself - i.e. set it a task and leave it to it).
Expert systems operating independently cannot benefit from toolkits or augmentations that may add additional modifiers. E.g. Science toolkits include Expert packages but state that you require Skill-0 before you get the +1 DM for the tools. It is explicit that an Expert Package does not help an unskilled person using the tools (as skilled users get +2DM but unskilled users only get to negate the unskilled modifier).
Skilled users only need a Cr100 interface and the Cr100's version of expert packages and the required computer can be cheaper and much smaller due to the Retro Tech rules as it can be 3-4 TL lower.

The Skill-0 Expert/3 is an edge condition. Unless you have negative INT or EDU DMs, once you have Skill-1 you are always better off using Expert/1 than an unskilled user with Expert/3 if only on cost grounds.

If you house rule that the DM for a skilled person to equal the Level of expert, it makes expert systems too powerful in my opinion so I stick to the default rules.

With the RAW you can have characters festooned with multiple microchip sized specialist computers (Cr80) with cheap Expert/1 for every skill they got at skill 0 with basic training and background. For the cost of a single Expert/2 that grants an unskilled user skill level 1, you might have 9 or more Level 1 skills after mustering out from basic training (technically you don't even need to survive your first term but you need some cash to buy the expert systems) and begin adventuring at age 22.

 

[Fresnel]

"

You get +1 regardless of the level of expert package.

A skill 0 user is still allowed to trust the computer to do the work instead and gain the +2 DM.

Can you give a book ref or is it a house rule?

Expert systems operating independently cannot benefit from toolkits or augmentations that may add additional modifiers. E.g. Science toolkits include Expert packages but state that you require Skill-0 before you get the +1 DM for the tools. It is explicit that an Expert Package does not help an unskilled person using the tools (as skilled users get +2DM but unskilled users only get to negate the unskilled modifier).

RAW is a bit confused on this imo. Your quote relates to scientific toolkit I think. These toolkits include a tablet with an Expert system - but it isn't stated what level Expert or if they have an Intelligent Interface or Intellect.

Regardless, few Referees would allow bonuses from two Expert systems to stack... So I agree that an Unskilled user using an Intellect+Expert system will not get a further bonus from a Scientific toolkit - but neither would a Skilled user with an Intelligent Interface+Expert.

The more general Toolkit rules are on: p120 Core:

"Toolkits may be purchased at higher Tech Levels and will be much more capable at fulfilling tasks. If a toolkit is at least two Tech Levels higher than the item or task that is being worked upon, it will grant DM+2 to all related checks. However, if a toolkit is two Tech Levels or more lower than the item or task that is being worked on, it will inflict DM-2 on all related checks."

Having a TL14 Toolkit to repair a TL12 Reactor would give DM +2 for any user - even an unskilled one using an Intellect + Expert computer system.

On a side note: This discussion has yet to address Neural Links/Jacks.

I have a house rule that Surgery requires a Neural Link/Jack to get advantage - even though the Task is linked to EDU.

 

[Grognardia]

The rules for expert systems and bonuses are some of the worst explained I've ever seen. They really need a total redesign.

 

[Fresnel]

The rules for expert systems and bonuses are some of the worst explained I've ever seen. They really need a total redesign.

It is complex lego-like system. Flexible, but monstrously confusing to even experienced players. Although imo it's mostly presentation and lack of worked examples.

It might be a good JTAS article to present packaged versions of these systems. i.e. The 'Ling Standard Products Starship Engineer Expert Assistant - Deluxe". Imperial Star Marine AI Battle Dress package.

 

[Arkathan]

Can you give a book ref or is it a house rule?

Core '22 pg 111

 

[Fresnel]

Core '22 pg 111

The question was aimed at:: "A skill 0 user is still allowed to trust the computer to do the work instead and gain the +2 DM."

i.e. You have an Expert/3 system and you are Skill 0.

Imo by RAW you can only take the +1 DM

 

[Arkathan]

The question was aimed at:: "A skill 0 user is still allowed to trust the computer to do the work instead and gain the +2 DM."

i.e. You have an Expert/3 system and you are Skill 0.

Imo by RAW you can only take the +1 DM

Sorry. The bold part is what I latched onto in giving the reference.

 

[Fresnel]

Re-reading the CSC I see the Intellect package is a more advanced agent. So if the task involves no physical actions by the user - it should be able to by-pass the Attributes of the user.

However, if the Intellect is walking the user through a reactor repair - I would rule that the user's EDU be applied.

 

[swordtart]

I disagree. You would need an Agent to leave the computer to do the task independently. If you are using Intelligent Interface or Intellect, I believe that by RAW you must add your attribute DM - even if it is negative. A dumb user cannot help but mess up.

From CSC p69
Agent is effectively a specialised combination of Expert Electronics (computers) and a single-purpose Intellect software package. An Agent package requires no other interface packages and can use the full bandwidth of a computer to complete its tasks. As with Expert packages, Agent software provides DM+1 when used in conjunction with a Traveller’s Electronics (computers) skill rather than autonomously.

Agent is specialised Expert system for conducting Electronics(Computer) tasks and as computer tasks are easier for a computer it is cheaper and uses less bandwidth.
I read the bold bit as meaning expert packages can be run autonomously.

RAW is a bit confused on this imo. Your quote relates to scientific toolkit I think. These toolkits include a tablet with an Expert system - but it isn't stated what level Expert or if they have an Intelligent Interface or Intellect.

Regardless, few Referees would allow bonuses from two Expert systems to stack... So I agree that an Unskilled user using an Intellect+Expert system will not get a further bonus from a Scientific toolkit - but neither would a Skilled user with an Intelligent Interface+Expert.

My points was more that skilled users can stack science tool bonuses with the expert package in the science toolkit, but unskilled users could not. I wasn't suggesting stacking the expert package in the toolkit with another expert package. +1 DM comes from the tools another +1 from the expert system. As it is limited to difficult tasks it is clearly an Expert/1 (and any higher expert system would soon out price the toolkit itself). Other toolkits (e.g. that don't have expert packages built in can of course stack with a separate expert system.

The more general Toolkit rules are on: p120 Core:

"Toolkits may be purchased at higher Tech Levels and will be much more capable at fulfilling tasks. If a toolkit is at least two Tech Levels higher than the item or task that is being worked upon, it will grant DM+2 to all related checks. However, if a toolkit is two Tech Levels or more lower than the item or task that is being worked on, it will inflict DM-2 on all related checks."

Having a TL14 Toolkit to repair a TL12 Reactor would give DM +2 for any user - even an unskilled one using an Intellect + Expert computer system.

Most of those toolkits are for conducting physical tasks. Expert systems cannot help with physical tasks. Of course you might argue that diagnosing the fault is the hard bit and an expert package would help with that. I am not sure how an expert package can help you wield a spanner. Neural jack takes that limitation entirely away.

Scientific toolkits are listed in the list of toolkits so the rule about TL bonuses and penalties applies to Scientific Toolkits as well. However they explicitly do not allow unskilled users to gain any benefit from the instruments in the kit. So you would get the +/-2 from any TL difference +1 from the kit as an unskilled user. A skilled user would get the +/-2 from the TL difference and +2 from the kit.

It could probably do with tidying up as the first 2 paragraphs on P121 are often contradicted in the paragraphs about specific scientific disciplines on the following 2pages. It is also not clear from the table on p123 if the Toolkit contains the Expert package in the price as it lists an expert package separately (which costs more than an Expert/1 package and the system required to run it would cost). If the Expert package is separate then it doesn't need to be referenced here and could be referred out to the computer section (and then you could choose your own level of expert).

On a side note: This discussion has yet to address Neural Links/Jacks.

I have a house rule that Surgery requires a Neural Link/Jack to get advantage - even though the Task is linked to EDU.

This is another of those situations where the task description doesn't necessarily align with common sense. Sometimes a skill requires both Education and Dexterity. I don't care what level of medical degree you have, if your hands are all shaky you can back off with the scalpel! You could use a task chain, but then you are doubling up on skill checks. Or you could house rule that both DEX and EDU modifiers apply. Or rule that the expert system provides a boon. All in a days work for a Traveller referee

 

[Limpin Legin]

You get +1 regardless of the level of expert package.

Indeed that is all it says ...

If you house rule that the DM for a skilled person to equal the Level of expert, it makes expert systems too powerful in my opinion so ...

... that is also true ...

A skill 0 user is still allowed to trust the computer to do the work instead and gain the +2 DM.

... except that doesn't exactly make sense. "Expert Systems" are 70s/80s applications that answer user questions as if it were an "expert". If a user asks the right question, the ES provides the right knowledge, all in the language of the "expert" - NOT the language of the novice (ie no LLM). AFAIK, modern "expert systems" are called Decision Support Systems (DSS). Perhaps Traveller intended different ... but that would be a departure from common knowledge of the field.

 

[swordtart]

... except that doesn't exactly make sense. "Expert Systems" are 70s/80s applications that answer user questions as if it were an "expert". If a user asks the right question, the ES provides the right knowledge, all in the language of the "expert" - NOT the language of the novice (ie no LLM). AFAIK, modern "expert systems" are called Decision Support Systems (DSS). Perhaps Traveller intended different ... but that would be a departure from common knowledge of the field.

I wouldn't rely too much on words in the rulebooks being equivalent to industry standard terms. Terms that one person thinks are industry standard may mean something else to people with different experience. Currently Expert systems seems to mean AI is the key driver and we didn't have so many of those in the 70's. Of course the term AI is rather vague itself and means different things to different people.

The Intellect interface is the thing that translates the naïve questions of the unskilled operator into terms the expert can handle and vice versa. If you want to apply modern terms you could call this the LLM, but then you limit your understanding to what we think we know now rather than what could be the case in thousands of years time in a galaxy far far away. The Intelligent interface is the one that requires a degree of understanding of the technobabble of the expert system.

If someone from today were forced to explain computers in terms a medieval scholar could understand it would be at best partially successful. You might be able to explain the capability, but the actual terms you used would be meaningless and any translated words would be analogues that probably have meanings for a medieval linguist that the modern person didn't foresee. Some words will be particularly challenging e.g. mentioning Daemon processes will probably result in a less than convivial chat with Cardinal F'Tang.

Any user of a Traveller expert Admin package can just say "Omicron! Access my bank details and complete and submit my tax records for me" and go to the pub. The user doesn't have to know what forms to use, who to send them to, what the current tax rules are or even how much money they made this year. They don't even have to be there, the expert system can do it all for them.

If the user is an expert in Tax law on the other hand, they can just ask the expert system to collate the numbers for them and crawl the legislation and provide them with any recent changes to tax law. Then the skilled individual can then submit the tax return manually and include any loopholes they want to exploit.