Overlapping Weapon Styles

[Darkholme]

For the legend game we're starting up next week, I had the players throw together their own races & Cultures. I found a template for Cultures, and let them customize them and do cultural writeups. For Races I had them describe them, and I gave stat modifiers to the human stats that equalled a total of +6.

Now: One of the players is making a character from a culture that gets "Sword and Tower Shield" as a combat style. He also took Profession: Noble, which gives him "Sword" as a fighting style; but "sword" is also covered with "sword and tower shield".

How do I deal with this? Allow them to stack (he's likely never going to raise his "sword" combat style, because why would he? Just tell him to use "sword" if he ever uses a two handed sword?

I'm interested in other opinions, or an official stance.

Thanks

 

[jwpacker]

If you've let the player develop the culture, then he obviously intends that his nobles fight with shields in their off-hands. So I see no reason not to change the Noble bonus skill to Sword and Shield in his particular case. I would probably say the same thing if the culture he created said that their primary fighting style revolved around a two-handed long spear - but I'd also ask if they were interested in keeping sword skill as well, as something that sets them apart as nobles from the common spear-wielding folk.

I guess, for me, I would try to avoid being slavish to the rules when they fail to accommodate what the game needs.

 

[DamonJynx]

IMO, the combat styles Melee Weapon & Shield, allow the use of a 1H melee weapon of the chosen type i.e. Axe, Hammer, Spear, Sword or whatever with a shield. The combat style "Sword" relates to 1H swords and so would stack for the purpose of the 10% bonus (there are no penalties for not using your off hand item except the loss of the additional CA granted by them).

This means that your PC 'out in the field' might use a Longsword and Tower shield, but in 'Civilised' areas wears just his sword (Longsword or some other appropriate 1H sword, a Rapier perhaps) and uses the same skill for each.

The use of specific 2H weapons (not 1H weapons that can be used 2H - there's a big difference), IMO, is always treated as a different skill even if the weapon is of the same general type, i.e. Longsword and Greatsword.

 

[Darkholme]

But should it give him a bonus when he goes to parry with his shield?

Should he still get the bonus with the sword when he is wielding a shield? Or should it only apply when his off-hand is free?

I'm a little iffy on the particulars, beyond the possibility of letting him take is as a bonus to a different fighting style, like sword and shield.

 

[DamonJynx]

But should it give him a bonus when he goes to parry with his shield?

He gets an additional CA which is bonus aplenty.

Should he still get the bonus with the sword when he is wielding a shield? Or should it only apply when his off-hand is free?
I'm a little iffy on the particulars, beyond the possibility of letting him take a different fighting style.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean. But here is an example:

Bob the Aristocrat comes from the Land of Milk & Honey. Their cultural fighting style is Sword & Board - this applies to any 1H Sword and any Shield.

As a Noble he also gets 1H Sword as professional bonus. Because he already has 1H Sword as part of his Sword & Board style he gets a 10% bonus to the style.

So the combat style % is STR+DEX+Cultural Bonus+Professional Bonus+Free Skill points (max 30). Assume his STR is 15 and his DEX 13 his maximum Sword & Board Style as a beginning PC is 78%. Because he's using a Shield in his off-hand he also get's an additional CA. He loses the CA if he can't use 1 part of the style - his shield is broken for example, but still fights with his sword at 78%.

He can fight with other 1H swords, but may be penalised for doing so - that's your call (I don't recall what page of the rulebook that's on, but its in the combat section somewhere).

Hope that clears things up a bit.

 

[Darkholme]

Bob the Aristocrat comes from the Land of Milk & Honey. Their cultural fighting style is Sword & Board - this applies to any 1H Sword and any Shield.

As a Noble he also gets 1H Sword as professional bonus. Because he already has 1H Sword as part of his Sword & Board style he gets a 10% bonus to the style.

So the combat style % is STR+DEX+Cultural Bonus+Professional Bonus+Free Skill points (max 30). Assume his STR is 15 and his DEX 13 his maximum Sword & Board Style as a beginning PC is 78%. Because he's using a Shield in his off-hand he also get's an additional CA. He loses the CA if he can't use 1 part of the style - his shield is broken for example, but still fights with his sword at 78%.

Lets assume he has the 78 you just described.

Bob the Noble is now fighting with his Sword and Shield. Someone is going to attack him with an axe, and he goes to parry it with the shield.

Should he have a 78% or a 68%? Why should the +10 to swords give him a bonus with his shield? - This is why I was thinking that his profession bonus of +10 should only apply when he is using a sword and no shield, or should be a situational bonus that applies to his swording, but not his shielding.

He can fight with other 1H swords, but may be penalised for doing so - that's your call (I don't recall what page of the rulebook that's on, but its in the combat section somewhere).

You're referring to the bit that says when he tries to use say, a two-handed sword, I can give him a penalty and let him roll his 1h sword skill, yeah? I figured as much, there, its the above bit I'm not sure how to handle.

 

[Harshlax]

Darkholme, from the way you describe your example, it sounds like you have the idea that the cultural sword-and-board training is very different from the noble's sword training. The way I understand weapon Styles is more tied into the way the character has been taught to fight, rather than primarily the weapons used.

Using the Paksenarrion books as an example, if you are familiar with them. Paks is taught Mercenary Combat which includes shortsword, shield, spears and polearms, and some use of the bow. However, Mercenary combat is specifically in a formation of soldiers, using the shieldwall. When she goes independent she has to train in a fresh combat style first, that of fencing - long blade swords and shield but out of formation and/or in 1 on 1 situations.

If your noble sword skill is more like this latter, and the sword and shield is based on formation fighting then trying to fight with a shield out of formation may incur a small penalty when on their own due to lack of familiarity with having no shieldmate to rely upon. I would probably allow the addition of extra weapons etc into the styles as long as they were appropriate to the style, for the cost of a tick after a few fights using them at a small penalty. But I wouldn't try and add knifework to chivalrous combat though.

Thoughts?

 

[soltakss]

Should he have a 78% or a 68%? Why should the +10 to swords give him a bonus with his shield? - This is why I was thinking that his profession bonus of +10 should only apply when he is using a sword and no shield, or should be a situational bonus that applies to his swording, but not his shielding.

The +10% is due to the character geting "Sword" twice, once in the Background and once in the Profession.

Combat Styles make no distinction between the weapons used. So, his skill is with using a sword and a shield, a sword and a shield. The +10% merely represents the fact that a Noble has had some additional training that a normal person hasn't, in addition to any skill points gained as part of the Noble Profession.

 

[Darkholme]

Yeah, I'm picturing one being sword and shield (no shield wall) and the other more like fencing (free hand). One is about dodging and footwork, whereas the other takes advantage of your ability to use the shield to parry; but the sword in the main hand is used similarly.

Which is why I'm uncertain how to handle them.

 

[Harshlax]

Yeah, I'm picturing one being sword and shield (no shield wall) and the other more like fencing (free hand). One is about dodging and footwork, whereas the other takes advantage of your ability to use the shield to parry; but the sword in the main hand is used similarly.

Which is why I'm uncertain how to handle them.

From that I would say follow other's advice and just add the +10% into the sword and board style. Not using the shield will have the notable disadvantage of -1 CA and the inability to parry missile weapons to balance out the +10% for all uses of the sword.

Have you seen the Signs and Portents article discussing Weapon Styles? Using them to represent systems of training with multiple weapons I feel fits better than specific weapons.

If you wish them to be different don't just add 10%, consider gaining a separate weapon style of sword at base + 10%.