Omega Epsilon

EricRoss

Mongoose
I noticed in the EA Factbook that the Omega actually seems weaker than many of the Hyperion varients in terms of firepower, sure they have more hit points and DR, but a lower DV. If you look at the Omega, only the Beta has any weapons facing the sides, they are only good in a head on attack, and even then they don't have the ability to deal as much damage as a Hyperion. If you were to do maximum damage at a clse enough range to use all the forward weapons the damage dealt for the Omega's (and Hyperion Theta) would ba as follows:


Omega-Alpha (Range 3): 150+20d10=350max

Omega-Beta (Range 3): 130+18d10=310max

Omega-Gamma (Range 3)[varies by weapons used]: heavy lasers 170+19d10=360max, or laser/pulse 150+20d10=350max, or pulse only 130+21d10=340max,

Hyperion-Theta (Range 2): 150+23d10=380max

Because of these woeful numbers I have come up with the Omega Epsilon to increase the combat effectiveness of the Omega design, I assumed the Omega-X (Shadow Omega) is the Delta model hence why this is the Epsilon. It is capable of dealing 240+29d10=530 max damage at a range of 3 and carries weapons capable of firing to protect the sides of the ship, making it vastly superior to any ship other than the Warlock that doesn't use Alien technologies. Here it is:

Earth Force Omega Destroyer (Epsilon)(starting 2265)
Omega class Destroyer [Epsilon model]:
Colossal III Spacecraft: hp 750; DV 3 (-12 size, +5 agility); DR 24; Spd-; Acc 4; Dcc 2; Han +1; Sensor +2; Stealth 12; SQ Jump Point, Long-Ranged, Artificial Gravity (rotating section only); Cargo 150,000lbs.; 12 Officers, 28 Pilots, 24 Sensor Operators, 132 Crewmen (196 total)

Weapons:
Two Twin-linked Heavy Laser Cannon: 1 forward Boresight, 1 aft Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 80+8d10; Critical 19-20; Range 6
Twin-linked Heavy Pulse Cannon: Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 20+3d10; Critical 19-20; Range 5; Rapid Fire
Twin-linked Medium Pulse Cannons; 1 front/left/right, 1 aft/left/right; Attack +2 (targeting computer); Damage 20+2d10; Critical 19-20; Range 4; Rapid Fire
Twin-Linked Laser Arrays; 1 front/left/right, 1 rear/left/right; Attack +1 (targeting computer); Damage 40+6d10 laser; Critical 19-20; Range 5
Two Hex-linked Particle Beams: 1 forward Boresight, 1 aft Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 10+3d10; Critical 20; Range 3
Six Mk II Interceptors: 2 forward/left/right, 2 aft/left/right, 1 left, 1 right; Attack +3 (targeting Computer); Damage 10+3d10; Critical 20; Range 1; Rapid Fire

Craft
24 Starfuries or Thunderbolts, 2 Shuttles
 
Omega-Alpha Destroyer (Agamemnon): 24(12) SPBs, 8 Interceptors/E-Web, 4 Heavy Lasers and 2 Heavy Pulse Cannons, 24-36 Fighters.

Omega-Beta Pulse Destroyer (Heracles): 24(12) SPBs, 8 Interceptors/E-Web, 4 Heavy Pulse Cannons and 4 Medium Pulse Cannons, 24-36 Fighters.

Omega-Gamma Command Destroyer (Apollo): 24(12) SPBs, 8 Interceptors/E-Web, 6 Heavy Laser/Pulse Arrays.




The Omega-Epsilon is indeed the Omega-X. It is not the Gamma model, which is the Command Variant. We have no idea what the Delta model is, but it's reasonably either a carrier, assualt or ELINT/Scout variant. Also, carrier craft in B5, like the omega, generally carry a number of pilots equal to 150% of their fighter craft. Also, the Omega in particular carries between ~365 bare minimum (Roanoke) and 1,000 (Apollo) crew, presumably making up the difference with GROPOS for Marine and Security actions.


The thing you have to remember is that they were build with very different philosophies. The Hyperion was built to be a mainline cruiser in fleet actions: Lots of medium weaponry, mediocre anti-fighter weaponry and small amounts of fighters, depending on escorts to keep itself alive. The Omega was built to be a stand-alone explorer, able to take anything that came at it regardless of location: Long-range weaponry, huge fighter complement, and an enormous anti-fighter array allowed it to be self-escorting and self-sufficient
 
In the Earth Force Campaign Guide is another Omega X. That design is lethal, mounting many Shadow Beams.
 
Acctually in the EF Campaign Guide there is both the Omega-X (Shadow Omega), Warlock, and Nemisis on pages114-116, all three of which are formidable. It should be noted that of these three only the Warlock is the only one that is free of Shadow Technology. The design I posted above is not any of these ships and should not be confused with them, but an up-gunned version of the Omega Alpha desogned with heavy combat in mind.
 
EricRoss said:
Acctually in the EF Campaign Guide there is both the Omega-X (Shadow Omega), Warlock, and Nemisis on pages114-116, all three of which are formidable. It should be noted that of these three only the Warlock is the only one that is free of Shadow Technology. The design I posted above is not any of these ships and should not be confused with them, but an up-gunned version of the Omega Alpha desogned with heavy combat in mind.
The Warlock has a hell of a lot of Shadow Technology, just not any Shadow Weaponry.



Anyway, it shouldn't be a Gamma because we already have a Gamma. It should either be Delta (2261 and prior design study) or Zeta (post 2261, ISA tech showcase).

I have huge problems with the design from a design standpoint. The reason the Omega doesn't have the obscene amount of Medium Laser/Pulse Arrays is because it has that really huge rotational section. Just where exactly were you planning to put these extra 2 Medium Pulse Cannons and 2 Medium Laser/Pulse Arrays anyway? You didn't even remove any anti-fighter weaponry, not that you could rework the power feeds for heavier weaponry.



There.
Is.
No.
Space.
 
You are correct about the name, I missed the Gamma, so it would be Delta. As for weapon space, on every screen shot from the series and pic I have seen, there are a number of turret emplacements in front of and behind the rotating section. It would not be difficult to rework the power feeds to allow the existing and added turrets to acomplish this. It is very possible and there is plenty of room for it, after all, it is a new design (the Omega) and the designers would have to be fools not to include 'wiggle-room' for improvements.
 
The Cheat said:
Omega-Alpha Destroyer (Agamemnon): 24(12) SPBs, 8 Interceptors/E-Web, 4 Heavy Lasers and 2 Heavy Pulse Cannons, 24-36 Fighters.

Omega-Beta Pulse Destroyer (Heracles): 24(12) SPBs, 8 Interceptors/E-Web, 4 Heavy Pulse Cannons and 4 Medium Pulse Cannons, 24-36 Fighters.

Omega-Gamma Command Destroyer (Apollo): 24(12) SPBs, 8 Interceptors/E-Web, 6 Heavy Laser/Pulse Arrays.

The thing you have to remember is that they were build with very different philosophies.

I could be wrong, but you appear to be using ACTA stats to make your point. The RPG stats for these ships are a bit different, and I would ask that we stick to the RPG system, since this is the RPG forum.

And as for Design Philosophies...the Omega is intended to replace the Hyperion, which is an older design. As such it should have the weaponry to do the job. And if a Hyperion can carry that much firepower, the larger Omega should have no problem with it, and still have room for the fighters.
 
The Cheat said:
OmThe Omega-Epsilon is indeed the Omega-X. It is not the Gamma model, which is the Command Variant. We have no idea what the Delta model is, but it's reasonably either a carrier, assualt or ELINT/Scout variant.


In the RPG the Shadow Omega is likely the Omega Delta, I miss-typed Gamma. but that would still leave the Epsilon model open, which is what I am trying to represent. The Condor and Hyperion-Gamma excel at troop deployment, so I doubt they would have a dedicated Omega design, and oth the Oracle and Explorer are ELINT ships, and the Posidon is the main Fleet Command ship design so I doubt there would be Omega vareints of these either. And I have seen nothing in the series to prove there are such designs.
 
The Omega-X is the Omega-Epsilon. This is complete canon, as of Agents of Gaming: The Comming of the Shadows.

EricRoss said:
I could be wrong, but you appear to be using ACTA stats to make your point. The RPG stats for these ships are a bit different, and I would ask that we stick to the RPG system, since this is the RPG forum.

And as for Design Philosophies...the Omega is intended to replace the Hyperion, which is an older design. As such it should have the weaponry to do the job. And if a Hyperion can carry that much firepower, the larger Omega should have no problem with it, and still have room for the fighters.
The Omega is not ment to replace the Hyperion. It is ment to replace EVERYTHING, basically the entire fleet with one type of vessel. That didn't work so well, so the EA is changing that with the Warlock era. It's enhanced weaponry is its FIGHTER complement, and longer-ranged guns. The ship is primarily defensive in nature, Earth couldn't afford to build ships for an offensive operation when the Minbari destroyed the fleet.


Vessels the Omega Replaces:
Hyperion: Hyperion Shipyards ended production in 2261. The Omega is now the mainline cruiser, Hyperions are relegated to escort duties.
Olympus: The days of HCV escorts in the modern era was dead, prior to the development of the Cronos.
Artemis: As above, but all Artemis's were destroyed by the Minbari.
Saggitarius: No missile cruisers survived the Minbari War.
Orestus: The production of system moniters stopped after the Dilgar War, those that survived the Minbari War have only been upgraded.
Oracle: Extremely few Oracles survived the Minbari War. The Omega is the standard jump and scout cruiser, and primary choice for all Hyperspace Deeprange Patrols and First Contact Missions.
Avenger: Only 1 Avenger survived the Minbari War. The Omega is the default fleet carrier, capable of carrying 36 Fighters (AoG and Mongoose be slightly damned, we clearly see 34 Fighters launch from the Churchil in Severed Dreams).

So, for ship production durring the Omega Era, we have the following military ships:
Explorer Survey Ship
Poseidon Fleet Carrier
Tantalus Assault Cruiser
Omega Destroyer
Nova Dreadnought
Hyperion Cruiser
Tethyse Cutter


And nothing inbetween. The Omega has longer-ranged weaponry, is bigger, better armored, and more survivable with a better defensive grid due to enhanced weaponry, can get the first strike in with Heavy Lasers and a huge Fighter Complement, and is much more likely to walk away from any battle you'd care to name than a Hyperion.

Hyperion = Fleet Element: Offensive
Omega = Loner: Defensive


And just where, pray tell exactly, do you plan to put your 4 new weapons (specifically keeping the SPB turrets, because you included them in your description). More over, where do you plan to find power when the Omega itself didn't have it installed in the first place?

You cannot just add weapons for free. Something has to go.
Omega.gif
 
cannot just add weapons for free. Something has to go.

Well the SPB turrets are not all that they seem. According to AOG they are a Standard Particle Beam, but if you look closely you will see that there are two barrels on each turret and in the show we have seen them fire pulses (No Surrender, No Retreat) and beams :)shock: ) (Messages from Earth & Point of No Return [not so sure about the title, but it is the episode where we see the Alexander fighting Clark’s forces out by Jupiter]).
So unless SPB's have different fire modes (which they do not according to AOG) then they must be different weapons, so this is a long winded way of saying they might be the ones that Eric can use for freeing up space for what he wants.

Of course you could always wait for the Ship Builders Manual due out in May(?), that might make it a whole lot easier!! :lol:

DW
 
Traveller-61 said:
cannot just add weapons for free. Something has to go.

Well the SPB turrets are not all that they seem. According to AOG they are a Standard Particle Beam, but if you look closely you will see that there are two barrels on each turret and in the show we have seen them fire pulses (No Surrender, No Retreat) and beams :)shock: ) (Messages from Earth & Point of No Return [not so sure about the title, but it is the episode where we see the Alexander fighting Clark’s forces out by Jupiter]).
So unless SPB's have different fire modes (which they do not according to AOG) then they must be different weapons, so this is a long winded way of saying they might be the ones that Eric can use for freeing up space for what he wants.

Of course you could always wait for the Ship Builders Manual due out in May(?), that might make it a whole lot easier!! :lol:

DW
AoG had a freaky way of organizing certain weapons with the show. The "Standard Particle Beam", "Light Particle Beam", and "Heavy Particle Beam", along with their array compatriots, have always been a pulse weapon, from the Omega to the Primus to the Drazi Warbirds. It just didn't use pulse rules, like any fighter weapon you'd care to name. I, personally, never remember it firing in beams during Point of No Return, though I slightly remember something from Messages from Earth.


They are not, however, two different weapons. There is a large, offset turret, and that's were everything comes from. It (assuming you are correct and there is a beam mode) is basically just a shrunk-down version of the standard HLPA turret on an Omega. You never saw anything come out of that little tube on the Omega turret, and you won't see that happen on the SPB either.
 
The Cheat said:
The Omega-X is the Omega-Epsilon. This is complete canon, as of Agents of Gaming: The Comming of the Shadows.

I hate to break it to you, but Canon is what is on-screen or in an approved novel. AOG no longer has the rights to the B5 games, Mongoose does, and the Mongoose system shows different representations of many of the ships. I have never, and will never consider ANY game book to be Canon, since licensing changes and new games replace old ones making them, and all their info obsolete

The Omega is not ment to replace the Hyperion. It is ment to replace EVERYTHING, basically the entire fleet with one type of vessel. That didn't work so well, so the EA is changing that with the Warlock era. It's enhanced weaponry is its FIGHTER complement, and longer-ranged guns. The ship is primarily defensive in nature, Earth couldn't afford to build ships for an offensive operation when the Minbari destroyed the fleet.


Vessels the Omega Replaces:
Hyperion: Hyperion Shipyards ended production in 2261. The Omega is now the mainline cruiser, Hyperions are relegated to escort duties.

So, for ship production durring the Omega Era, we have the following military ships:
Explorer Survey Ship
Poseidon Fleet Carrier
Tantalus Assault Cruiser
Omega Destroyer
Nova Dreadnought
Hyperion Cruiser
Tethyse Cutter


And nothing inbetween. The Omega has longer-ranged weaponry, is bigger, better armored, and more survivable with a better defensive grid due to enhanced weaponry, can get the first strike in with Heavy Lasers and a huge Fighter Complement, and is much more likely to walk away from any battle you'd care to name than a Hyperion.

Hyperion = Fleet Element: Offensive
Omega = Loner: Defensive.

And what episode or novel did you get this data from? If it wasn't in an approved Novel or the On-Screen than it is not Canon, and your entire argument has no merit at all.

And just where, pray tell exactly, do you plan to put your 4 new weapons (specifically keeping the SPB turrets, because you included them in your description). More over, where do you plan to find power when the Omega itself didn't have it installed in the first place?

You cannot just add weapons for free. Something has to go.

Do you really think it can't be engineered? A flippin' Hyperion has as mainy weapons as the Omega I have posted and is considerably smaller. Nothing has to go and I would really appreciate it if you stoped acting like your opinion is B5 Law...

IT ISN'T

it is just your opinion, and from my perspective, a very flawed one. You seem to think that your way is the only way and youare always right. You are wrong on both counts.
 
Eric - Just thinking about those Particle beam mounts - they were modified on the Shadow Omega to fire the light multi-phased cutter beams.
It seems that they should be robust enough to mount what ever you want there!

DW
 
EricRoss said:
I could be wrong, but you appear to be using ACTA stats to make your point. The RPG stats for these ships are a bit different, and I would ask that we stick to the RPG system, since this is the RPG forum.

Nope, those aren't ACtA stats but the B5 Wars ones, which the RPG stats are descended from :)

The RPG stats list those in a more d20 way of course...
 
EricRoss said:
The Cheat said:
The Omega-X is the Omega-Epsilon. This is complete canon, as of Agents of Gaming: The Comming of the Shadows.

I hate to break it to you, but Canon is what is on-screen or in an approved novel. AOG no longer has the rights to the B5 games, Mongoose does, and the Mongoose system shows different representations of many of the ships. I have never, and will never consider ANY game book to be Canon, since licensing changes and new games replace old ones making them, and all their info obsolete

Actually you're wrong here. The vast majority of the AOG information was absorbed directly into the RPG - especially as far as the EA forces go. Take a look at the EA supplement for instance, which was written by Bruce Graw who was pretty much AOG in many ways.

The possible points of contradiction come in when you have different authors working on the background (as the RPG has). Bruce didn't include the Omega Epsilon in the EA source book, presumably because how the RPG was going to treat the ancients and their technology wasn't settled upon at that point. There is reference to it in there though... Gareth who wrote the EA Campaign Guide, I presume, isn't familiar with the AOG background material to the extent some of us are ;) and went with the references to which he's familiar. In a lot of fan sites, the Shadow Omega is referred to as the Omega-X, which doesn't actually fit the scheme used by the EA (established by AOG BTW...) in any case. However, that designation in itself is a reference to another wargame, Star Fleet Battles which had its X tech cruisers, with the X designating the new much better technology. So a CA (Heavy Cruiser) would have the equivalent CA-X.

Anyway, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss AOG out of hand. The B5 license builds with each incarnation (it was certainly a part of AOG's license while they had it, and I suspect it forms a part of Mongoose's) - there isn't the big reset button the Star Trek license has each time.
 
Traveller-61 said:
Eric - Just thinking about those Particle beam mounts - they were modified on the Shadow Omega to fire the light multi-phased cutter beams.
It seems that they should be robust enough to mount what ever you want there!

Provided it's Ancient technology...
 
frobisher said:
Provided it's Ancient technology...

Yep, but considering that they were putting a lot more power through those mounts they must be pretty strong; after all they did not need to replace them totally with Shadow tech, just the inner workings.

DW
 
Trifles Make Perfection, and Perfection is no Trifle

EricRoss said:
I hate to break it to you, but Canon is what is on-screen or in an approved novel. AOG no longer has the rights to the B5 games, Mongoose does, and the Mongoose system shows different representations of many of the ships. I have never, and will never consider ANY game book to be Canon, since licensing changes and new games replace old ones making them, and all their info obsolete
I'm getting slightly fething tired of having to keep posting this.
jmsaog6iz.jpg

Mongoose never got a reference like that, and there has been absolutely nothing recinding it, period.


You seem to have very strange ideas about the canon scale. Just because a source is out of production DOES NOT MEAN IT CAN BE DISREGAURDED! Should we ignore the series because Crusade died? Hell no.
Mongoose is the only source for new canon, it does not render older canon void in the slightest.


B5Wars, and other Agents of Gaming products, are quite frankly more trustworthy. They could afford to bend their entire company resources and enthusiastic zeal towards Babylon 5, and did so. They had much better proofreading. And, in addition to the above quote from JMS, they had a canon editor in the name of Fiona Avery. She worked with JMS for years, and wrote quite a few Babylon 5 episodes. Agents of Gaming has built the details of Babylon 5, give them respect.

Contrast this with Mongoose. Don't get me wrong, I love them to death for grabing this project when everyone else left them to die, but take the facts at face value. They do not have a canon editor. From some of their proofreading errors, I have occasional doubts that they actually have an editor at all. They ignore canon material, some of it rather integral. A) They forgot that Narns are freaking marsupials in entirety. B) Even sourcing the book directly, they forgot that "Involking Darkness" declairs that Shadows are energy beings, not matter. C)Shadows breaking the Triad's lines? Seriously, did they forget completely who the Triad are? They even ignore their own canon and productions going on 1 room away, or need I reference the Dilgar ships in the Campaign book with the Miniatures?
They get a good minority of their information, and almost all their art, off the internet without pay for God's sake! Who in their right mind takes B5Tech.com, or any casual fan-fiction, at face value?! It smacks of laziness, a cheep budget, and lack of use of official material (which, by their other works, they undoubtedly have actual access to. If they don't, I'll sell my entire collection to them).

Objectively, Mongoose is simply a worse source for information. I hold them no ill will about it, as I am sure that their errors were comitted out of ignorance rather than malice or creative difference. They're simply wrong more often. They've built a lot of the universe, most of it uncovered, off the bones of B5 and the shoulders of AoG. I also have no doubt that when they mature as a company, able to devote requisit time along with the requisit funds to the B5 Roleplaying endevor, that they will become an excellent source for information. The second edition is the first step in that, there will undoubtedly be others.

And what episode or novel did you get this data from? If it wasn't in an approved Novel or the On-Screen than it is not Canon, and your entire argument has no merit at all.
See above. Particularly that nice little picture. Hell, these ships are in the EA Factbook. Simmer down.

Do you really think it can't be engineered? A flippin' Hyperion has as mainy weapons as the Omega I have posted and is considerably smaller. Nothing has to go and I would really appreciate it if you stoped acting like your opinion is B5 Law...

IT ISN'T

it is just your opinion, and from my perspective, a very flawed one. You seem to think that your way is the only way and youare always right. You are wrong on both counts.
I am asking where you, yourself, will personally find the space for that. The Hyperion is limited endurance, it trades comfort for firepower in the knowledge that it had a well-balanced fleet of escorts for protection.
The Omega didn't have that. At all.

So what are you going to remove to fit, and power, the MLPAs? All four forward SPBs for a single one? The entire hanger for two? Either of these are acceptable, for a fleet battlecruiser and nothing that will every operate independantly. I am attacking your assertation that they can simply "engineer" their way out of all practical concerns without regard to consequence, space, and power, simply because you think that they should have more firepower than a vastly different ship.




As for the Light-Molecular Slicer Beams, remember that they still aren't as powerful as a Medium Laser. :wink: Let alone MLPAs.
In all seriousness, shadow technology is highly assimilative, enhancing current technology through unknown process. You definitely need a shadow powersource to power Light Molecular Slicers, and the Omega-Epsilon definitely grew one. The issues mostly moot.
 
The Cheat said:

Mongoose never got a reference like that, and there has been absolutely nothing recinding it, period.


The only reference Mongoose needs is that it is Mongoose, not AOG that has the rights these days. Period.

The Cheat said:
You seem to have very strange ideas about the canon scale. Just because a source is out of production DOES NOT MEAN IT CAN BE DISREGAURDED! Should we ignore the series because Crusade died? Hell no. Mongoose is the only source for new canon, it does not render older canon void in the slightest.

Acctually, if the current authorized game producer for B5 publishes data that contradicts what AOG had (I stress had because guess what, AOG doesn't publish B5 games anymore) published before they lost the rights, then it CAN and SHOULD be disregarded when discussing the new, and only currently authorized role-playing game system.

The Cheat said:
B5Wars, and other Agents of Gaming products, are quite frankly more trustworthy.

Objectively, Mongoose is simply a worse source for information.

OK, now in you remarks, that are simply too long to quote in their entirety, you have effectively insulted the writers and editers of alot of the books, people like August Hahn, whom I have met and worked with at GenCon SoCal, and coesponded with on-line. You are dedicated to AOG, which while loyalty is comendable, you should remember that this is not an AOG forum, it is a Mongoose forum, if you want to slam this system and it's writers, my friends DO IT ELSEWHERE. I am done arguing with you. You are wrong to slam people doing the best they can o keep the B5 game alive while you do nothing. I will not be responding to anything else you post anywhere on this forum, because you have proved that you are not giving the Mongoose B5 system a fair shake or the credit it is due.
 
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