Average Age of Retirement by TL

[MasterGwydion]

So, what is the average "retirement age" in Traveller? As there doesn't really seem to be an answer in the books, I made one up.

Current retirement age in the US is 67. The average life expectancy in the US is roughly 78 years.

From TL-7 on up this method works. It breaks down in sub-TL-7 societies, so take this with a grain of salt.

Average life expectancy is TLx10. We are almost TL-8 and the average life expectancy is almost 80.

67/80 = is roughly 84%

So here is what I have for retirement age at the varying TLs

TL-8 = 67 or after 13 terms
TL-9 = 76 or after 15 terms
TL-10 = 84 or after 17 terms
TL-11 = 93 or after 19 terms
TL-12 = 101 or after 21 terms
TL-13 = 110 or after 23 terms
TL-14 = 118 or after 25 terms
TL-15 = 126 or after 27 terms
TL-16 = 135 or after 30 terms
TL-17 = 143 or after 32 terms

This means that, when a character begins rolling for aging checks needs to change as well. Your first ageing check at 34 only makes sense in a society of a TL near current Earth. Currently, TL has no effect on ageing, which makes no sense at all. If the average person in today's world works to age 66 (for easier math), that is Term 12. 2D6-12 Average roll = -5 or -2 on all physical stats.

Let's math it out... Average human at the average Imperial TL of 12 with average rolls on the ageing checks

Term 4 (34) - 2d6-4 = 3 (All good)
Term 5 (38) - 2d6-5 = 2 (All good)
Term 6 (42) - 2d6-6 = 1 (All good)
Term 7 (46) - 2d6-7 = 0 (Reduce one physical stat by 1, 20 points of physical stats left)
Term 8 (50) - 2d6-8 = -1 (Reduce 2 physical stats by 1 each, 18 points of physical stats left)
Term 9 (54) - 2d6-9 = -2 (Reduce all 3 physical stats by 1 each, 15 points of physical stats left)
Term 10 (58) - 2d6-10 = -3 (Reduce 1 physical stat by 2 and the others by 1, 11 points of physical stats left, with one stat only at 3 currently.)
Term 11 (62) - 2d6-11 = -4 (Reduce 2 physical stats by 2 and the other by 1, 6 points of physical stats left, 2 points in each)
Term 12 (68) - 2d6-12 = -5 (Reduce 3 physical stats by 2, zero points remaining in any physical stat.)

So, by the current system (CRB pg 48-49), the average life expectancy for humans in Imperial Space is 68 years, 10 years less than the life expectancy in the US currently. Does that seem right to anyone? Or did I screw something up?

 

[Condottiere]

Access to health services.

I guess, planetary pollution index.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It depends on the pension plan you pay into. The state pension age is ridiculously high in the USA and the UK compared with European countries like France.

Some careers can afford to retire at 50

 

[Condottiere]

And then there's Universal Basic Income.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It depends on the pension plan you pay into. The state pension age is ridiculously high in the USA and the UK compared with European countries like France.

Some careers can afford to retire at 50

I looked up the average retirement age for the US as a baseline. Right or wrong, I needed a number to start with. lol. When Marc wrote the Traveller rules in the 70s, 68 was the average life expectancy, so that is what he used. My guess is that it never occurred to him that higher TL societies would have greater life expectancies, which would result in different time frames for Ageing Checks.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And then there's Universal Basic Income.

In the Third Imperium? jajajajajajaja

 

[Condottiere]

Why do you need pensions?

Pensions are meant as financial support when your body is too old to work.

The question most governments, since you assume they bear responsibility for financing it, will allow access to it, and to what degree.

In a post scarcity civilization, it probably won't matter.

And in ours, the average number of years that the system can finance a pensioner, before their expected expiration date.

 

[Limpin Legin]

So, what is the average "retirement age" in Traveller?

5+ terms - when workers retire they are eligible for a pension. Would that be a law or a coincidence?

Let's math it out... Average human at the average Imperial TL of 12 with average rolls on the ageing checks

Yes, but why keep the 'tipping point' base age for ageing at 34 when the quality of life due to tech advancements is improving?

Ageing doesn't "normally" have effect until people feel middle age has hit them. While life expectancy is increasing, the feeling of middle age is also increasing. Have you ever heard of contemporary journalists say "60 years is the new middle age"?

I see from people all around me that middle age is increasing and life expectancy is increasing, but as soon as someone suffers multiple health issues, then their life expectancy often plumets.

Does that seem right to anyone? Or did I screw something up?

Thanks for posting this. I had wondered the same about Traveller. MgT is better than CT in that respect but either ruleset would leave me with the same questions as you.

 

[MasterGwydion]

5+ terms - when workers retire they are eligible for a pension. Would that be a law or a coincidence?

No idea. lol. Although 5 terms seems a weird age to start collecting a pension. It makes sense for the military, but not civilians. For most vets, they have careers after the military. Most civilians don't, they just work at Walmart as greeters...lol...

Yes, but why keep the 'tipping point' base age for ageing at 34 when the quality of life due to tech advancements is improving?

That was My question. Why not add 1/2 of the TL as a positive DM to the Ageing Check? Although, I haven't mathed this out, so it might not work out right.

Ageing doesn't "normally" have effect until people feel middle age has hit them. While life expectancy is increasing, the feeling of middle age is also increasing. Have you ever heard of contemporary journalists say "60 years is the new middle age"?

I see from people all around me that middle age is increasing and life expectancy is increasing, but when someone suffers multiple health issues, then their life expectancy often plumets.

Yeah, but in-game this is simplified as a simple ageing check with permanent penalties that make sense for a game.

Thanks for posting this. I had wondered the same about Traveller. MgT is better than CT in that respect but either ruleset would leave me with the same questions as you.

I was writing up an idea I had for Gannvair in the Year 1,117 and them going into hiding below the surface of one of the gas giant's moons to avoid the civil war. The more I thought about that scenario, the more I realized that once the Virus hits they'd be stuck there for even longer. I wondered if any of the originally scientists would still be alive when they were finally able to leave their Sanctuary. (Turns out that a lot of them will be since the average life expectancy that I came up with for TL-15 is 150 years and they have access to medical nano-bots to extend that.) That got Me wondering about life expectancy and ageing checks and retirement age in Traveller. Which is how I ended up with this mental mess...lol...

 

[Geir]

42... no, that's not the answer, that's when aging start to hit me. And I'm retiring at 60, but only because I'm a DINK who believes in the philosophy "You don't get rich by spending money". I've failed a bunch of rolls in my 50s (good thing I don't need to check INT yet by CT rules, anyway). But enough about me. I may still have to learn to say "Welcome to Walmart" if my retirement math is faulty.

I had suggested in an early thread two DMs to aging based on the characteristic DM from SOC and an equivalent range of DMs for TL. As for retirement age, I think that is going to be very societal-based. The Vilani apparently spent 100 years of their life at work, but whether TL actually increases or decreases the age of retirement may have more to do with how able a society is to afford the percentage of population that isn't working - lower the age, increase the costs, and the more services the elderly get, the bigger chunk of money goes to 'non-productive' people (yes, children aren't actually productive, but at least they have future productive value).

Or worst case, Soylent Green (not productive, but nutritious).

 

[MasterGwydion]

42... no, that's not the answer, that's when aging start to hit me. And I'm retiring at 60, but only because I'm a DINK who believes in the philosophy "You don't get rich by spending money". I've failed a bunch of rolls in my 50s (good thing I don't need to check INT yet by CT rules, anyway). But enough about me. I may still have to learn to say "Welcome to Walmart" if my retirement math is faulty.

I may see you there. lolz.

I had suggested in an early thread two DMs to aging based on the characteristic DM from SOC and an equivalent range of DMs for TL. As for retirement age, I think that is going to be very societal-based. The Vilani apparently spent 100 years of their life at work, but whether TL actually increases or decreases the age of retirement may have more to do with how able a society is to afford the percentage of population that isn't working - lower the age, increase the costs, and the more services the elderly get, the bigger chunk of money goes to 'non-productive' people (yes, children aren't actually productive, but at least they have future productive value).

Or worst case, Soylent Green (not productive, but nutritious).

My guess would be that in a Capitalist society, such as the 3I, retirement age goes up with life expectancy. I used 84% of life expectancy to determine retirement age.

 

[Condottiere]

It comes down to a question, whether it's cheaper to just offer free cyber upgrades, as stuff starts to droop, as opposed to pay out a monthly stipend.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It comes down to a question, whether it's cheaper to just offer free cyber upgrades, as stuff starts to droop, as opposed to pay out a monthly stipend.

I figure little things like that are part of high-tech medical care (Although, not free. You pay for it with a later retirement age.) and are therefore already figured into my increased life expectancy calculation. Basically, you get an extra 10 years per TL beyond TL-8. Higher-skilled employees for the cost of some healthcare, in a healthcare system made much cheaper by robo/nano-medicine, cloning cells and body parts directly from the patient's cells, broad-spectrum drugs good for almost anything, gene therapy, etc...

 

[Nelphine]

so, since that one doesn't quite work for sub TL7, what if we didn't make it flat TLx10, but instead, some constant plus TL x something.
for some reason google gave me Canada results first:

1920, average life expectancy was 60 (TL5)
1945, average life expectancy was 65 (TL6)
1980, average life expectancy was 75 (TL7)
2010, average life expectancy was 80 (TL8)

1820, average life expectancy was 40 (TL4)
1700, around 35? hard because Canada wasn't around so no longer comparing apples to apples (TL3)

1400, around 30? (TL2)
0 (TL1), around 25? TL1 has a really wide range though
TL0 is even harder to identify, so i'll skip it.


but this means roughly.. 22+7*TL?
1 -> 29
2 -> 36
3 -> 43
4 -> 50
5 -> 57
6 -> 64
7 -> 71
8 -> 78


That's not.. terrible.

so then:
9 -> 85
10 -> 92
11 -> 99
12 -> 106
13 -> 113
14 -> 120
15 -> 127


then assume that retirement is also something that improves with TL, so at TL8 its 84% of your life expectancy, but TL1 it would be 98%. So then retirement is 100-2*TL% of life expectancy.

1 -> 29, retire 28
2 -> 36, retire 35
3 -> 43, retire 40
4 -> 50, retire 46
5 -> 57, retire 51
6 -> 64, retire 56
7 -> 71, retire 61
8 -> 78, retire 66
9 -> 85, retire 70
10 -> 92, retire 73
11 -> 99, retire 77
12 -> 106, retire 81
13 -> 113, retire 84
14 -> 120, retire 86
15 -> 127, retire 89

 

[Nelphine]

this also means we can probably do 'first term' as a function of TL as well...

something like first term starts at 10+TL

1 -> 29, start 11, retire 28 (4 terms)
2 -> 36, 12-35 (6 terms)
3 -> 43, 13-40 (7 terms)
4 -> 50, 14-46 (8 terms)
5 -> 57, 15-51 (9 terms)
6 -> 64, 16-56 (10 terms)
7 -> 71, 17-61 (11 terms)
8 -> 78, 18-66 (12 terms)
9 -> 85, 19-70 (13 terms)
10 -> 92, 20-73 (13 terms)
11 -> 99, 21-77 (14 terms)
12 -> 106, 22-81 (15 terms)
13 -> 113, 23-84 (15 terms)
14 -> 120, 24-86 (15-16 terms)
15 -> 127, 25-89 (16 terms)

 

[Sigtrygg]

Why do you need pensions?

Pensions are meant as financial support when your body is too old to work.

The question most governments, since you assume they bear responsibility for financing it, will allow access to it, and to what degree.

In a post scarcity civilization, it probably won't matter.

And in ours, the average number of years that the system can finance a pensioner, before their expected expiration date.

There is more to life than being forced to work. Our current system is designed to make you go to work if you want nice stuff, the harder you work the nicer the stuff. Work really hard or in a high paying job and you can put enough money away that you can live off the interest of your savings - your pension investment returns. Then you can do what you want, rather than what you are told to.
There is a difference between a state pension, which barely provided subsistence standard of living, and a private pension.

My father retired at 50 having worked in the NHS for 30 years, he was made redundant and received an enhanced pension, he received a pension for his full 40 years. Once he reached the age of 65 he then received his state pension on top of his "service" pension.
I'm not going to quote exact numbers here but his service pension was worth ~£1800 per month. His mortgage (all £6000 of it) had been paid off years ago so after food and utilities that is quite a comfortable living. At 65 his state pension added another ~£750 per month.
He recently passed at the age of 84. thirty four years of being independently wealthy and able to do what he and my mother wanted.
He enjoyed his work, he enjoyed his retirement more.

Compare with a minimum wage wage slave that will have to work until 67 to get their £800 per month.

 

[Nelphine]

and I'd probably do first aging roll as a function of TL as well, so something like 6 years + 1 year/TL after starting term

1 -> 29, start 11, retire 28 (4 terms), aging roll starts at 18 (2 terms)
2 -> 36, 12-35 (6 terms), aging roll starts at 20 (2 terms)
3 -> 43, 13-40 (7 terms), aging roll starts at 22 (2 terms)
4 -> 50, 14-46 (8 terms), aging roll starts at 24 (3 terms)
5 -> 57, 15-51 (9 terms), aging roll starts at 26 (3 terms)
6 -> 64, 16-56 (10 terms), aging roll starts at 28 (3 terms)
7 -> 71, 17-61 (11 terms), aging roll starts at 30 (3 terms)
8 -> 78, 18-66 (12 terms), aging roll starts at 32 (4 terms)
9 -> 85, 19-70 (13 terms), aging roll starts at 34 (4 terms)
10 -> 92, 20-73 (13 terms), aging roll starts at 36 (4 terms)
11 -> 99, 21-77 (14 terms), aging roll starts at 38 (4 terms)
12 -> 106, 22-81 (15 terms), aging roll starts at 40 (5 terms)
13 -> 113, 23-84 (15 terms), aging roll starts at 42 (5 terms)
14 -> 120, 24-86 (15-16 terms), aging roll starts at 44 (5 terms)
15 -> 127, 25-89 (16 terms), aging roll starts at 46 (5 terms)


and you'd need to modify the aging rolls somehow to account for the differing TLs, so that you could get those different retirement ages

 

[Sigtrygg]

I may see you there. lolz.

My guess would be that in a Capitalist society, such as the 3I, retirement age goes up with life expectancy. I used 84% of life expectancy to determine retirement age.

The Imperium is not a capitalist society, individual world may be, but the Imperium is not strictly a capitalist society.

 

[Nelphine]

there's an argument to be made that the life expectancy increase per TL, should increase as TL increases (so not flat 7/TL, but starting at like 5/TL at TL1, up to 10/TL at TL15) but that seemed too complicated so i didn't bother with it

 

[Condottiere]

Feudal, apparently.

There, you mop until you drop.

Most countries have some form of a pension system; navigating through it, to optimize outcomes, is sort of incentivized.

It may be inherently a Ponzi scheme.