Omega Epsilon

[frobisher]

It should also be noted that the novels aren't uncontradictory and so shouldn't always be taken at face value.

Compare and contrast the Technomages in the Technomage Trilogy and the ones in the Centauri Trilogy. If you've read the former, something is just plain wrong with new apprentices being present in the latter.

Also, my gut feeling - and obviously Gareth's as well - was that the reference in Invoking Darkness was just plain wrong. The Shadows aren't energy beings, certainly not the way the Vorlons almost are (and they are not pure energy beings either...) - I think that was ampily demonstrated in the series

 

[EricRoss]

True, the novels do have flaws here and there, but as a whole info that is from the screen is best, the novels next best...taking info from a gamebook as Canon is risky due to the fact that anyone can make a mistake when writing or editing no matter how good a job they try to do (and I applaud the job they are doing at Mongoose) so it is best to think of the source. My problem with 'The Cheat' is that he is slamming My design, the Mongoose system, and associates of mine that have done alot of writting for that system be cause he thinks AOG is the be-all-end-all of B5 gaming. He has yet to produce anything from the series or books to support his views and I am tired of hearing him trash talk this system and it's work when he bloody well couldn't do better.

 

[frobisher]

I can see where you're coming from on this, certainly.

It all depends upon what is actually canon really.

Is the RPG more canon than ACtA or vice versa?

Units differ between the two systems to say the least... A certain amount of difference is given by ACtA's glopping together of AD for systems, but a large chunk of it is the fact that ACtA is designed to be a balanced system with units shoehorned into the PLs and so differing from their original source of inspiration.

But one rule of thumb you perhaps should bear in mind is the accepted "trade up/down" rule that was used from the B5Wars system, and let's face it this is where the stats are descended from...

A "light" weapon (ie not a "medium" or "heavy") needs a pair of those traded in to give you a single "medium", and similarly two "mediums" for a "heavy". Basically the space has to come from somewhere, the power has to come from somewhere...

The other thing you have to consider is that your design came from a "we should have a better Omega" point of view rather than "we haven't seen this design yet" one.

 

[EricRoss]

In a nutshell, your design is "unreasonable" from an AOG and RPG point of view but perfectly "reasonable" as an ACtA design.

I do not know the ACtA system, but given that (from an RPG perspective) the ships armement is not much more powerful, or maybe just on par with, a Hyperion, I do not see why it is 'unreasonable' several years after the Shadow War and Civil War. Could you please explain why you think it is. I do appreciate honest constructive critisism.

 

[frobisher]

I do not know the ACtA system, but given that (from an RPG perspective) the ships armement is not much more powerful, or maybe just on par with, a Hyperion, so I do not see why it is 'unreasonable' several years after the Shadow War and Civil War. Could you please explain why you think it is. I do appreciate honest constructive critisism.

Sorry - hence the edit above - I thought I was on the ACtA forum

But I don't think the Omega is the hull they would apply these "improvements" to - that's the domain of the Warlock and it's ilk.

 

[EricRoss]

I looked at the Warlock, after I came up with this and the Warlock is considerably more powerful in it's initial configuration, and the Nemisis is an absolute monster. Add to that the fact that it would take less time and cost less money to produce an Omega, or modify one, to these stats and it just made sense to me. Not everyone would agree, but I thank you for your feedback.

 

[frobisher]

I looked at the Warlock, after I came up with this and the Warlock is considerably more powerful in it's initial configuration, and the Nemisis is an absolute monster. Add to that the fact that it would take less time and cost less money to produce an Omega, or modify one, to these stats and it just made sense to me. Not everyone would agree, but I thank you for your feedback.

Okay I've looked over the weapon fit again, and there are problems with the weapon fit...

Twin-linked Medium Pulse Cannons; 1 front/let/right, 1 aft/left/right; Attack +2 (targeting computer); Damage 20+2d10; Critical 19-20; Range 4; Rapid Fire
Twin-Linked Laser Arrays; 2 front/left/right, 2 rear/left/right; Attack +1 (targeting computer); Damage 40+6d10 laser; Critical 19-20; Range 5

How do these weapon systems get these arcs..? Look at the physical model. To get turrets that would give that coverage, the ship isn't much going to resemble an Omega at the end of it.

Two Hex-linked Particle Beams: 1 forward Boresight, 1 aft Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 10+3d10; Critical 20; Range 3

And why boresight these? These are the primary antifighter weapons of the Omega which is why they are on wider arcs originally...

You also increased the power consumption of the ship by 150% but that's an AOG argument...

 

[EricRoss]

the Twin linked laser and pulse weapons are on turretes in front of and behind the rotating section.

As for the Partical beams, the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma versions in the EA Factbook show them in these arcs and I did mistype the laser arrays, there should be 1 forward/left/right, and 1 rear/left/right. I will edit a the ship asap to reflect that.

 

[EricRoss]

This is the updated version:

Earth Force Omega Destroyer (Epsilon)(starting 2265)
Omega class Destroyer [Epsilon model]:
Colossal III Spacecraft: hp 750; DV 3 (-12 size, +5 agility); DR 24; Spd-; Acc 4; Dcc 2; Han +1; Sensor +2; Stealth 12; SQ Jump Point, Long-Ranged, Artificial Gravity (rotating section only); Cargo 150,000lbs.; 12 Officers, 28 Pilots, 24 Sensor Operators, 132 Crewmen (196 total)

Weapons:
Two Twin-linked Heavy Laser Cannon: 1 forward Boresight, 1 aft Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 80+8d10; Critical 19-20; Range 6
Twin-linked Heavy Pulse Cannon: Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 20+3d10; Critical 19-20; Range 5; Rapid Fire
Twin-linked Medium Pulse Cannons; 1 front/left/right, 1 aft/left/right; Attack +2 (targeting computer); Damage 20+2d10; Critical 19-20; Range 4; Rapid Fire
Twin-Linked Laser Arrays; 1 front/left/right, 1 rear/left/right; Attack +1 (targeting computer); Damage 40+6d10 laser; Critical 19-20; Range 5
Two Hex-linked Particle Beams: 1 forward Boresight, 1 aft Boresight; Attack +2 (targeting Computer); Damage 10+3d10; Critical 20; Range 3
Six Mk II Interceptors: 2 forward/left/right, 2 aft/left/right, 1 left, 1 right; Attack +3 (targeting Computer); Damage 10+3d10; Critical 20; Range 1; Rapid Fire

Craft
24 Starfuries or Thunderbolts, 2 Shuttles

 

[frobisher]

the Twin linked laser and pulse weapons are on turretes in front of and behind the rotating section.

Room there is going to be tight, epsecially with the existing particle beam turrets. But the main concern was the size of their arcs - 270 degrees coverage is very hard to get on that hull. You could get a single turret on top in front and behind the rotating section, but there would be no room for the second turret there then. Mounting one below at the front wouldn't give you the forward arc due to the hammerhead getting in the way.

As for the Partical beams, the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma versions in the EA Factbook show them in these arcs

Eeek! you're right - that's a hell of a typo (the factbook is wrong here...)

The particle beams are the twelve turrets that are on the main body. The Coming of Shadows book gives those as non-linked 6 right and 6 left which is more what I expect from the way the d20 arcs work (shame they don't have "half-arcs" as that would allow better modelling of the ship.

 

[frobisher]

This is the updated version: <snip>

What I'd recommend instead as a "more reasonable" version of this (taking into account that the particle beam arcs are wrong on the Omega stats in the EA Factbook - there are quite a few other typos in other ship stats there as well)

Is replace your Twin-linked Laser Arrays, Twin-linked Medium Pulse Cannons, and Hex-linked Particle Beams with the following (which gives you a one-to-one match up with the existing turrets on the model).

Twin-linked Laser Pulse Array; (stats as Nova's); 3 left, 3 right.

However, that's just using the existing d20 arcs which I don't think do the job right.

I'd house rule some new 135 degree arcs for these (which I would be tempted to use for the particle beams on the Omega as well...)

Basically, right-forwardhalf is the 135 degrees covered by the right arc plus the half of the forward arc to the right of boresight, etc...

So you'd get

Twin-linked Laser Pulse Array; (stats as Nova's); 1 left-forwardhalf, 2 left-afthalf, 1 right-forwardhalf, 2 right-afthalf.

(Particle Beams on an Omega would then be...

2 left-forwardhalf, 4 left-afthalf, 2 right-forwardhalf, 4 right-afthalf

on that scheme)

Whilst what I suggest would still have a lot of people spinning in their wargaming grave (understatement) I feel it would give you what you're intending to gain from your version - the LPA's could operate in Pulse Mode for anti-fighter work - and very effectively too...

 

[The Cheat]

It should also be noted that the novels aren't uncontradictory and so shouldn't always be taken at face value.

Compare and contrast the Technomages in the Technomage Trilogy and the ones in the Centauri Trilogy. If you've read the former, something is just plain wrong with new apprentices being present in the latter.

They weren't new apprentices. We saw them by name in Involking Darkness.

Also, my gut feeling - and obviously Gareth's as well - was that the reference in Invoking Darkness was just plain wrong. The Shadows aren't energy beings, certainly not the way the Vorlons almost are (and they are not pure energy beings either...) - I think that was ampily demonstrated in the series

Molari shot them. We never had any evidence that they died there, and it would be quite reasonable to flee from pain.

How would you explain Sheridan's actions in Z'ha'dum, even with the mongoose stats, actually managing to kill a Shadow with a mear PPG? Ridiculous, he mearly wounded it.



Fact is, all higher life in B5 is energy based. The Vorlons, the Walkers, the later Humanity and, in particular reference, the aliens of River of Souls. AoG, and JMS, state specifically that when a race reaches proper introspection and enlightenment, they ascend into beings of light. "Hyperspace and the Technology Tree" state that instance as hyper-evolution, and the shadows were probably the second or third race of beings in the galaxy to attain it. The only First Ones that haven't are the Lords of Kirishiac, who were never introspective and are only classed as first ones due to military power, and the Torvalus, who were biologically imortal anyway and never felt the need.

This is either A)ignorance or B)ignoring established canon for no gain.

 

[The Cheat]

True, the novels do have flaws here and there, but as a whole info that is from the screen is best, the novels next best...taking info from a gamebook as Canon is risky due to the fact that anyone can make a mistake when writing or editing no matter how good a job they try to do (and I applaud the job they are doing at Mongoose) so it is best to think of the source. My problem with 'The Cheat' is that he is slamming My design, the Mongoose system, and associates of mine that have done alot of writting for that system be cause he thinks AOG is the be-all-end-all of B5 gaming. He has yet to produce anything from the series or books to support his views and I am tired of hearing him trash talk this system and it's work when he bloody well couldn't do better.

If you have a problem with the current omega, in reference to the current hyperion, then revamp the Heavy Laser for more damage. The show CGI model doesn't support your weaponry ideas in the slightest.

I've also tried to show you where I would have gone. Gut the forward section, particularly the hanger, for energy feeds.



As for ignoring evidence, in particular JMS's words, in favor of Mongoose's history of typos, go right ahead. And expect me to fight the idea that it's reasonable every step of the way.