Not Another White Star Thread (TM)

[David Anla Shok']

SM would seem to be more canon, "not changing the situation for most opponents" is not my concern, and nerfing the WS is certainly not my intention.

Yes, it probably would be more canon, and I've myself argued that perhaps the WS should go boresight but gain Vree style SM, but SM on the hull as it is is busted!

Regards,

Dave

The WS can be a fragile tool. Sometimes it works miracles, surviving all sorts of bad news and dealing out even more bad news. At other times, it dies ignominously without having done any damage...

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Just like canon! :wink:

 

[nekomata fuyu]

My understanding of the current WS is that it only needs a nudge as far as power is concerned, but that that isn't the issue. The issue as far as I understand it is that it achieves its power by being used in completely the wrong manner, and that it does need a significant push to correct that.
This is why I support the more radical changes, but am willing to consider giving something back to the WS in exchange.

 

[Triggy]

My understanding of the current WS is that it only needs a nudge as far as power is concerned, but that that isn't the issue. The issue as far as I understand it is that it achieves its power by being used in completely the wrong manner, and that it does need a significant push to correct that.
This is why I support the more radical changes, but am willing to consider giving something back to the WS in exchange.

Agreed that the reason for the White Star being so powerful is mainly because of the way it is used and the raw power that its 2AD beam has (the ship would be only slightly underpowered with 1AD but would miss that shot completely half of the time and therefore be a lot more frustrating to use).

 

[H]

My understanding of the current WS is that it only needs a nudge as far as power is concerned, but that that isn't the issue. The issue as far as I understand it is that it achieves its power by being used in completely the wrong manner, and that it does need a significant push to correct that.
This is why I support the more radical changes, but am willing to consider giving something back to the WS in exchange.

Agreed that the reason for the White Star being so powerful is mainly because of the way it is used and the raw power that its 2AD beam has (the ship would be only slightly underpowered with 1AD but would miss that shot completely half of the time and therefore be a lot more frustrating to use).

dare I suggest a twin linked 1AD beam.... someone run the maths...

 

[Triggy]

Twin-linked would be roughly balanced and would give a mean of 1.5 hits per AD (with a lower likelihood of runaway beam hits too).

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Minor problem: the current beam rules are pretty much banned from rerolling aren't they? At least, that seems to be the spirit of them.

 

[Greg Smith]

That is true.

 

[Kosh127]

an 8 inch main gun on a raid ship. ya well thats very very very weak. The problem that most people have with the ship is when power gamers use is in a evil way. The ship as a raid level goes is very powerful but not to so. If a couple of fleets have trouble dealing with it it does not make the ship broken. Perhaps there is a flaw with the other ships instead?? True its easier to destroy the WS fleet by cutting its head off but come on. an 8 inch gun is very sad on any ship. Much less a ship that is the keystone of a fleet. By making it get in the range of almost every gun in the game you make the ship dies very fast and it will not be shooting as much also. So now what a couple of less shots and a faster dieing ship is not a fix, its a kick in the shorts. Just like the gaim. People cry and cry (ya they needed a cut) but they got to much. Now the WS is under the block and well I can see dropping the deam to 15 or maybe 12 if you give it something in return, but thats not what most people are saying. Its always take take take because "I can't do that with my fleet so he can't do it with his." I am not saying a very small cut would be a bad thing I am just saying if you take and FORCE a ship to be shot all the time GIVE it back something to. IF MGP takes what people want not don't give they will make alot of people unhappy and perhaps quit. I hope they see that. BTW its just MHO

 

[H]

Minor problem: the current beam rules are pretty much banned from rerolling aren't they? At least, that seems to be the spirit of them.

that is correct, but then, it can change. After all, we lost all the actual antifighter guns in the last revision in favour of a silly AF system

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Random thought: In the show we don't see such a strong preference for beam over pulsars as we do in the game (do we even see such a preference at all?). We also don't see the in-game tactic of WSs standing off at maximum range.
This suggests to me that the WS should have reason to get in close, and that the beam shouldn't be the main weapon. As such, how about dropping the range of the beam (to between 8-12"), and compensating by upping the pulsar AD to 6 (maybe even 8)?
This way, yes the beam is weakened (but not really if you're using the WS properly anyway), but the pulsar is strengthened enough to be considered a main weapon.

 

[H]

that would be hindsights knife fight varient lol. Matt has already expressed via a playtester that he doesn't (currently) support this option

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I keep losing track of all the ideas that fly around

 

[Hindsight]

As has been said above, the 18" range has been missused by players who like to sit back and snipe at craft with a lesser range. Those of us who like our White Stars in the thick of things, are thus at a disadvantage vs. one who uses them at a distance. I will get shot more, than the sniper style player, so I am using a weaker White Star than my sniping companions.

How do you balance a craft, that is stronger, or weaker, based on style of use? If you take away my attack dice, I am still weaker than the sniper version. Thus the change should reflect the preferred style of play, which is in the thick of things, making the universe a better place a few dead Centauri at a time.

I just won't support a change that makes those of us who use the White Star like we should, up close and personal, weaker. The abuse comes from the snipers, who stay out of range of most secondaries, and some primaries.

That is the simple of it. Fix sniping. Support Knife Fighting.

Or Get The Hell Out Of Our Galaxy!

 

[David Anla Shok']

As has been said above, the 18" range has been missused by players who like to sit back and snipe at craft with a lesser range. Those of us who like our White Stars in the thick of things, are thus at a disadvantage vs. one who uses them at a distance. I will get shot more, than the sniper style player, so I am using a weaker White Star than my sniping companions.

How do you balance a craft, that is stronger, or weaker, based on style of use? If you take away my attack dice, I am still weaker than the sniper version. Thus the change should reflect the preferred style of play, which is in the thick of things, making the universe a better place a few dead Centauri at a time.

I just won't support a change that makes those of us who use the White Star like we should, up close and personal, weaker. The abuse comes from the snipers, who stay out of range of most secondaries, and some primaries.

That is the simple of it. Fix sniping. Support Knife Fighting.

Or Get The Hell Out Of Our Galaxy!

There are always ships with a longer ranged weapon. Singling out the White Star, while popular, is irrational.... not to mention Anla Shok profileing!

 

[H]

it is not singling a ship out unffairly, it is singling a ship out, that can dodge, with adaptive armour, and close it's blast doors whilst outmaneouvreing 90% of ships and sniping.

I can snipe with a Var'Nic, but I can't do any of the above with any real success.

 

[Hindsight]

Hiffano speaks truth David. Let us find a solution to this, test it, pass it, so this can rest. I'm tired of this. The shortest path to a solution is ideal.

 

[Zeru]

If people are unsatisfied with how the White Star currently is (I'm not) I believe they should cut its beam range down to 10, equal with its secondary guns, and pump its toughness up.

I honestly think that people want its range cut down any lower aren't considering the rather large disadvantage the White Star will suffer when going against races that DO have access to viable counters, anything with an E-mine (Gaim/Narn) or Accurate (Shadows/Drakh) tear them out of space as it is, if their range is cut they would suffer even more against the races the ISA is general is weak against.

Pumping up their toughness would be a fair comprimise for shortening their range down 45% while keeping their manuverability, that way they can enter "knife-fight" range even with the races that have direct counters to the White Star itself.

The White Stars get a buff against E-mines/Accurate, and a nerf against everything else. Sounds good to me.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Buffing the White Star against the only things that can reliably hurt it is not the way to go. It's too good, it needs reducing in power, not rebalancing to be more effective overall.

 

[Burger]

I still like my suggestion the best. 1AD TD is pretty much universally accepted as too weak... 2AD TD is pretty much universally accepted as too powerful...

Whats wrong with 2AD DD?