New Runequest - what to expect

[RMS]

You know I've never purchases a single d20 thing. I actually don't think the resolution system is half bad.

The resolution system is pretty damn excellent!

About the only good thing going for d20, which is a real shame. I'd love to port it over to RQ (any variant) as a house rule, but I don't think I'd be let away with it!!!

Would work best in RQ2 with it's multiples of 5, but there's precedent for RQ3 and MRQ in Bushido, which used a similar free precentile skill score, then derived a Base Chance of Success (BCS) by dividing by 5. Just stick DCs and rollover on top of that and you have one very good resolution system that's capable of handling a lot of situations in a flexible manner.

I actually advocated this a couple of places for people who dislike d% systems. You can divide standard RQ skills by 5 and then use a 1d20+skill vs. DC mechanic. (Aside: you'd need to move up the DC from the d20 system a bit as I understand it.)

In fact, the other night I read through the d20 stuff at WOTC and quickly threw together a system with no classes or levels (or feats at this point) that uses d20 and the standard D&D/d20 6 Charactersistics. For the fun of it, I also made the system not have HP, but only have damage levels. It's been a fun exercise. Maybe I should type it up. The problem I ran into is that without levels it's very hard to indicate how characters can improve since the license for d20 doesn't allow you to explain how to create a character or how to use experience for a character. I resisted the urge to allow players to attempt to roll over their current skill with a d20 to improve it!

I also have a magic system rolling around the back of my head that would nearly fit the no HP part by using neither memorized spells nor magic points or (directly) fatigue.

 

[Mikko Leho]

BTW, could you ask him what the effect, benefit of armor is? I for one would be interested in getting the option of someone with some practical experience.

I don't know Guy Windsor personally and the situation was more like an open question presentation at a roleplaying convention. If you are interested and in the neighbourhood he continues his lectures at this year's Ropecon (Espoo Finland, 11-13.8.2006). He has also website at: http://www.swordschool.com/en/index.html

There was another presentation by another, whose name I have forgotten, about historical armour. One of his points was that one cannot penetrate sophisticated armour by ordinary means. Specific polearms and firearms could break through the most advanced breast plates, but you were pretty much safe from onehanded swords and indirect arrow fire.

 

[Neo]

:lol:

I don't have a point of view about it, Archer. It annoys me when someone who *does* tries to pass it off as fact, in the face of fact. Don't let it get under your skin. That's just as silly.

k, firstly i never passed it off as fact, i experessed an opinion, relative to my own point of view, based on my own previous experiences with game..you don't share it, thats fine you don't need to and I could care less, I would however suggest as a new poster on these forums you lose the name calling and the attitude as you will find out that trollers and flamers and abusive people dont end up remaining long around here. This is a pleasant friendly community of people, many of whom know each other, so try and have a little dignity and remain polite.

Also there is the implication that whatever came before Warhammer was just a poor reflection of Warhammer? :lol: :lol: Please! Warhammer is a fine game and setting, but sure as sunrise not the first to use elements like chaos.

Implication in your head maybe, though I at no point said as much. Indeed if you knew me, you'd know im no great fan of Games Workshop in general anyway for amultitude of reasons, and many of thier games od not sit well with me. I simply said it felt like a cheap homage to warhammer and when queried I expressed the order of my expereinces that explain how that opinion was formed. You dont like that and continue to harp on a point most folks could care less about, and also try to imply things I at no point made any indication of and I would urge you to refraim from doing so.

Now, you are obviously a fan of Glorantha, and felt in some way that my opinion of it slighted something you obviously enjoy and felt the need to defend it, I can empathise with you to that extent, but I would urge you in future to choose your words a little more carefully, and that goes for the other poster atgxtg also. Express an opinion and respond to one, by all means but keep it civil.

Like I have said when you have been around here a little longer you will know that such behaviour isnt tolerated or appreciated. You queried my comment, I explained..like it or not thats an end to it, now move on.

If he thinks Warhammer is a better rendition of something that came before that is understandable. Only an opinion, but understandable. The rest is only semantics, and the very worst kind of sophistry.
Now, pax, OK?

Im afraid you missed the point I tried making in previous posts by a mile, and I am not about to try explainign it again.. you dont agtree with my opinion of glorantha, thats fine, you dont need to.. but because my opinion isnt that of yours is no reason to start name calling and being rude.

so lets move on already.

pax as you say..

 

[andakitty]

I didn't miss a thing. It doesn't wash.

 

[Enpeze]

I don't think 150% skills are all that unlikely in RQ. I mentioned earlier my Humakti and he had over 200% in his sword skill by the time we were done with the campaign. He is on the high power end of things, with multiple heroquests under his belt, etc. He also has a fair number of gifts from Humakt by this point, but the vast majority of that skill came from good ole' skill increases. Since the chances of a skill increase level off at your INT, there's always about a 10-15% chance of actually increasing a skill you use, so those skills keep climbing at the same pace once they hit 85% or so.

I am really astonished. 200%? How old is your warrior? 120 years? Even with your INT bonus it should be impossible to get in these heights with the normal RQ rules in one single human lifespan. Especially if you play with loosing characteristics due to age. Maybe you have been very lucky in your improvement rolls.

Well whatever. My fazit is: Its no wonder that the RQ modifiers like armor bypass seems not to work, if one has such high powered characters. Or maybe I played the game not correctly the last 20 years.

 

[andakitty]

Maybe he meant Stormbringer5?

 

[burdock]

enpexe wrote:

I am really astonished. 200%?

200% is about the level of ability I would expect from a character who is approaching Hero status and engaging on heroquests. You cant skirmish with Whiteeye and his band forever!

 

[atgxtg]

I don't think 150% skills are all that unlikely in RQ. I mentioned earlier my Humakti and he had over 200% in his sword skill by the time we were done with the campaign. He is on the high power end of things, with multiple heroquests under his belt, etc. He also has a fair number of gifts from Humakt by this point, but the vast majority of that skill came from good ole' skill increases. Since the chances of a skill increase level off at your INT, there's always about a 10-15% chance of actually increasing a skill you use, so those skills keep climbing at the same pace once they hit 85% or so.

I am really astonished. 200%? How old is your warrior? 120 years? Even with your INT bonus it should be impossible to get in these heights with the normal RQ rules in one single human lifespan. Especially if you play with loosing characteristics due to age. Maybe you have been very lucky in your improvement rolls.

Well whatever. My fazit is: Its no wonder that the RQ modifiers like armor bypass seems not to work, if one has such high powered characters. Or maybe I played the game not correctly the last 20 years.

INT bonus? Whoa, I think we are talking differenet edtions of RQ or perhaps a differenet BRP game. In RQ 3 you get to add your category modifer to your improvment roll. A roll over 100 is always an improemnet. Now, when a character hits Rune Level Status, he (or she) probably has worked up his attribute scores, and so prpbnably has a good STR and DEX, sp a Category Modifer of +8% or even higher are not that uncommon. I once had an elf character with an attack mod over 20%! It would have gotten to 30% if I could have gott the 20 DEX up to 30 (not easy, but possible).

So after a point, the chances of improvement level out. Get into enough fights (and Rune Lords tend to do so), and the skill Percentages rise.


BUT-the other way that you hit those high percentages in RQ was through spells. Things like Bladesharp, Fantascism, Arrow Trance, and Beserk will throw Rune Lords into the uber percentages. With the way RQ combat works (at least until now) there really insin't much reason for such character NOT to take the penalty to avoid armor.

 

[Enpeze]

Well I have to admit that I never was in Glorantha that far to think about Heroquests. And HQ heroes do have 200% or more? Where is the limit? 1.000%? 10.000? I cannot see much sense in these high stats. Its sounds a little bit like playing D&D powergaming to me. Everybody has super skills and is super good. The normal trained and equipped soldiers will be squashed like an ant.

For me a hero is rather a titel which one human gives another human, not a objective feature. A hero could be a policeman who saves another human from drowning in a wild river. Or it could be the young but inexperienced tough guy with STR18 which is sent out to combat the monster in the local woods which eat the miller yesterday.
Or a hero is also a the french revolutionary and demagogue Robbespierre. (at least before he was hanged in 1794)

 

[Enpeze]

atgxtg - INT bonus? Whoa, I think we are talking differenet edtions of RQ or perhaps a differenet BRP game. In RQ 3 you get to add your category modifer to your improvment roll. A roll over 100 is always an improemnet. Now, when a character hits Rune Level Status, he (or she) probably has worked up his attribute scores, and so prpbnably has a good STR and DEX, sp a Category Modifer of +8% or even higher are not that uncommon. I once had an elf character with an attack mod over 20%! It would have gotten to 30% if I could have gott the 20 DEX up to 30 (not easy, but possible).

I was referring to RMS post where he mentioned INT

RMS -since the chances of a skill increase level off at your INT, there's always about a 10-15% chance of actually increasing a skill you use, so those skills keep climbing at the same pace once they hit 85% or so.

 

[atgxtg]

Of course it does. Otherwise why get you Doctor's opinion on a medical matter? An opionion that contradicts facts is invalid.

Well, if a doctors tests show that you have cancer, then you have cancer. That is mostly a fact, not an opinion.

True, but that isn't wjhat I wrote, or my point. My point is that not all opinions are equally vaid on all topics. If a Doctor gives you a medical OPINION, that opinion should have more weight than, say your mechanic's. On the other hand, if you can't get your car started, you usually don't go see your doctor about it.

Two persons observing the same chain of events will have two different points of view, two different perspectives. In this instance a point of view can be true or false, because it directly disputes facts.

BINGO! THis is what I was saying. My orginal post was NOT an attack on Neo for having an opion, or for prefering the Warhammer setting over Glorantha-I have mentioned that before.

What I did do was ask him how he could have come to his conclusion about Glorantha when GLorantha preceded Warhammer. So in this case the point of view is proven false based upon the facts-that is you can't be a cheap homage to something that doesn't exist yet.

Just because Glorantha seemed like a homage to the Warhammer world, a sort of copy of that setting, to that person, it does not mean that his point of view is invalid and does not matter.

To him that is how things seems, and though it disputes fact, that is his perspective.
To just dismiss his point of view on the setting, and say that it does not matter at all, just because his point of view contradicts facts or your own point of view, that is just unsympathetic and outright rude.

I didn't sday his view didn't matter. As far as dimissing his point of view becuase it contracdicts the facts-that just common sense. Every day we are exposed to differenet points of view and decide which ones have merit. If a child comes to me claiming that there is a monster under the bed, and the facts prove that there isn't, I don't go out shopping for garlic and wolfsbane.

I didn't insut Neo or flame him-I did question his position. There is a big difference between the two.

 

[Cobra]

150%? whats this? Who has such a high value? My players tend to have 45-65% average and after years and much luck they have 75%. After 20 gaming just one player in my group managed to reach the 100%. He was one of the most excellent fighters in the whole kingdom.

150% are absolut unlikely. I cannot even imagine how many decades a person has to live a combat driven life to get such high percentages.

I don't think 150% skills are all that unlikely in RQ. I mentioned earlier my Humakti and he had over 200% in his sword skill by the time we were done with the campaign. He is on the high power end of things, with multiple heroquests under his belt, etc. He also has a fair number of gifts from Humakt by this point, but the vast majority of that skill came from good ole' skill increases. Since the chances of a skill increase level off at your INT, there's always about a 10-15% chance of actually increasing a skill you use, so those skills keep climbing at the same pace once they hit 85% or so.

I don't think you even need to go that far. Typically, those powerful characters are already splitting their attack in half to handle multiple opponents, so take that 200% sword skill I mention, knock it in half for two attacks at 100% and then reduce each to 60% for bypassing armor. The penalty is pretty substantial there. It's a real choice then of whether to deal with two opponents in a round or concentrate on one (who may well parry anyway).

In my Deluxe version of RQ3, to increase a skill over 100% you must roll a d% plus your skill category modifier over 100%. This means that I could have had as much as a 19% chance for each increase over 100% for the best of my old characters. But it also means that skill categories with a -ve modifier didn't get higher except by other means. Perhaps RQ2 was different.

But having said that, like Enpeze I only ever had one character get a skill of 101%, and that's it. My group much preferred the low end of the spectrum. I think this is simply a matter of preference and style. I also prefer low fantasy to high fantasy, and I think there's a correlation between the two sets of preferences.

If I had a skill of that high I sure would not divide my skill in half when bypassing armour - I think the sure bypass hit would far outweigh the 60% chance of hitting twice. Ah, but then I'm forgetting about the parry - so two attacks against an opponent with a single parry would make more sense in that case.

There is, IMO, a simple way to modify this rule slightly to make it riskier for high-skilled characters. Treat the -40% as a percentage of the percentage. This way, someone with a skill of 200% would be at -80% to strike this way. Further, I would make it mathematically simpler and say that to bypass armour or make an aimed blow, divide your skill in half. This way, characters with low skills still have some chance, and highly skilled characters are proportionately equally penalized.

But what I've missed somewhere along the way was what happened to the critical? This used to be the rule for bypassing armour - has it been replaced, and if so, why? I would hazard to say that most characters of moderate skills will have a better chance of bypassing armour with a precise shot than ever rolling a critical, so why not use it all the time against heavily armoured oponents. Further, this -40% rule completely ignores the quality of the oponents armour. Cheaply made armour with a 2 rating is just as easily bypassed as very expensive, close fitting armour, or even natural armour, with a much higher rating. This does not make sense to me at all.

Cobra

 

[burdock]

enpeze wrote:

For me a hero is rather a titel which one human gives another human, not a objective feature. A hero could be a policeman who saves another human from drowning in a wild river.

That is a different type of hero. A "Hero" in glorantha is someone who has gone beyond Runelord status (for theists) and has embarked on journeys beyond the physical world to interact with, and draw power from, the deeper mythic realities. Such journeys are termed "Heroquests".

 

[Urox]

A "Hero" in glorantha is someone who has gone beyond Runelord status (for theists) and has embarked on journeys beyond the physical world to interact with, and draw power from, the deeper mythic realities. Such journeys are termed "Heroquests".

One of the unoffical HeroQuest systems (I'm talking super-RQ from years ago) was to bump down d100 results by one category when on the Hero Plane --
A success became a failure
Special became a success
Critical became a special

I recall combat skills approaching 200% after counting in magic.

 

[RMS]

I certainly generated a lot of posts with my response! I wish I know how to easily respond to multiple posts at one shot. As is, you get a whole slew of responses from me!

I am really astonished. 200%? How old is your warrior? 120 years? Even with your INT bonus it should be impossible to get in these heights with the normal RQ rules in one single human lifespan. Especially if you play with loosing characteristics due to age. Maybe you have been very lucky in your improvement rolls.

This really isn't that hard, especially for a combat skill. That's a skill that gets used constantly (especially by a warrior), and gets a skill check every time out. I also do apparently have a lucky streak when it comes to increasing RQ characters combat skills. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate anywhere else. The poor guy took forever to get some of his other skills up to rune lord status and was the last person in the campaign to make it. In the meantime his Sword skill had already shot past 100% and continued to climb. (I can recall moaning when repeatedly he only improved sword, over and over.)

Actually, I've recently got to play a bit again and the same thing is happening to my hunter. He can't improve his perception or stealth abilities, but he's made very single roll for his javelin attack!

Well whatever. My fazit is: Its no wonder that the RQ modifiers like armor bypass seems not to work, if one has such high powered characters. Or maybe I played the game not correctly the last 20 years.

I'm sure you haven't been playing it wrong. RQ scales pretty well, and the campaign I'm talking about moved into pretty high power territory. Everyone had some selected skills over 100% by the end, but most were just a bit above it.

 

[RMS]

enpexe wrote:

I am really astonished. 200%?

200% is about the level of ability I would expect from a character who is approaching Hero status and engaging on heroquests. You cant skirmish with Whiteeye and his band forever!

Exactly. Look up the higher power NPCs in a typical RQ adventure. Check out the Coders or list of NPCs from Lords of Terror. I don't mind running at lower levels either, but it's fun to be the next Woflhelm rather than always just work for him!

 

[RMS]

INT bonus? Whoa, I think we are talking differenet edtions of RQ or perhaps a differenet BRP game. In RQ 3 you get to add your category modifer to your improvment roll.

Our RQ was a mixture of the best of RQII and RQIII with a few bits and peices of other BRP games where the rules worked better. It must be RQII then that allows this. It isn't an INT bonus as such. It's your INT stat: your chance of increasing a skill is always at least your INT stat in %. Technically, the rule is that if your skill is above 100-INT then you have to roll under you INT, but we changed that to just be that you need to either roll over 100-INT or over skill-modifier, whichever is lower.

I recall the RQIII rule you mention now, but we never used it.

BUT-the other way that you hit those high percentages in RQ was through spells. Things like Bladesharp, Fantascism, Arrow Trance, and Beserk will throw Rune Lords into the uber percentages. With the way RQ combat works (at least until now) there really insin't much reason for such character NOT to take the penalty to avoid armor.

Agreed for heavy armor, but then as I mentioned earlier that's accurate so I like it. (That is the concept. I still reserve judgement for the specific implementation.) The point of good armor is to make your opponent look even harder for opportunities to find an opening, and to absorb random hits on a chaotic battlefield, like missiles. Speaking of which, I'm hoping that this rule does not apply for missiles. It makes sense for melee, but not missiles.

 

[RMS]

Well I have to admit that I never was in Glorantha that far to think about Heroquests. And HQ heroes do have 200% or more? Where is the limit? 1.000%? 10.000? I cannot see much sense in these high stats. Its sounds a little bit like playing D&D powergaming to me. Everybody has super skills and is super good. The normal trained and equipped soldiers will be squashed like an ant.

There's no real limit, I suppose. There are creatures listed in Elder Secrets with skills in the multiple hundreds. It's not really powergaming IMO. It's just a natural development of running a character for a while and having some die rolls go my way. Recall that he is in a cult that specializes in swordsmanship and gives tons of free training, has a whole slew of gifts that boost skills in exchange for various geases, etc.

He's the only character I've ever seen get in that range: plenty with 100-120% range, but very few above that. Also, IMO heroquesting really isn't about super stats and skills. It's much more about personality and connections with your god. I never liked the various heroquest rules (heroquest as in Glorantha, not the RPG) that were basically super RQ. I like that ones that did things like add personality traits to PCs and introduce WILL as an additional stat.

I did that for my games and really like how heroquesting worked out in it. I stole the idea of Pendragon personality traits (nothing original there! ), but they only get used on the heroplane. Then I used WIL as a measure of free will. It's something that PCs can spend to break away from the myth of the god, but the cost is permanent. However, WIL also goes down as characters learn divine magic and improve skills beyond 90%. Basically, the more you become like your god, that less free will you have to change the myths of that god. So now, I have PCs wanting to miss skill checks because they're afraid of loosing their free will and apothesizing. I've wandered way off here, haven't I!

For me a hero is rather a titel which one human gives another human, not a objective feature.

I agree. Argrath to me isn't a super warrior himself, necessarily. (I'm sure he's very, very good, but probably not out of the league of the Humakti I mentioned for straight up individual stuff.) However, he's a hero because he's a great leader that people rally around. The same with the other heros of end of the 3rd age. In my longrunning campaign, the PCs have just liberated Pavis with a large army at their back. They mentioned that they must be breaking the meta plot since they can't be Argrath. Of course in my mind they really are because they've just done exactly what he did...and now they're preparing to invade Sartar with their army. (Hoping to get some use of my old copy of Dragon Pass for that!) I don't do the meta plot anyway, but they've actually fit it pretty well. Note: these guys started as a ragtag group trying to survive in the Rubble and have worked themselves up from beginners to this. It's been a blast. They're probably beyond that Humakti that I mentioned in most ways, but neither has a skill beyond the lower 100s...they're just in areas like Orate in addition to combat skills.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Further, this -40% rule completely ignores the quality of the oponents armour. Cheaply made armour with a 2 rating is just as easily bypassed as very expensive, close fitting armour, or even natural armour, with a much higher rating. This does not make sense to me at all.

That depends how much simulation you want out of the game. For instance different kinds of armour should give variable levels of protection against different kinds of damage. This is not implemented in any official version of RQ, but Harn covers that aspect nicely.

One advantage static percent reduction has over lets say halving one's success margin is that it can be increased or decreased. If opponents armour is really well made the GM can increase the difficulty to -60%, or if the armour in question is practically falling to pieces the difficulty could be -30%.

 

[atgxtg]

Further, this -40% rule completely ignores the quality of the oponents armour. Cheaply made armour with a 2 rating is just as easily bypassed as very expensive, close fitting armour, or even natural armour, with a much higher rating. This does not make sense to me at all.

That depends how much simulation you want out of the game. For instance different kinds of armour should give variable levels of protection against different kinds of damage. This is not implemented in any official version of RQ, but Harn covers that aspect nicely.

One advantage static percent reduction has over lets say halving one's success margin is that it can be increased or decreased. If opponents armour is really well made the GM can increase the difficulty to -60%, or if the armour in question is practically falling to pieces the difficulty could be -30%.

Some sort of vairable would be better than what wqe have seen so far. I don't like a fixed modifer, mostly becuase it can lead to situations where the fight becomes lopsided. FOr example, in RQ, after a certain point, it is actually better for a Rune Lord to fight in the dark. THe -75% penalty doesn't hurt him as much as his opponents.