New Runequest - what to expect

[atgxtg]

Your perception doesn't alter the fact that RQ was created first. Don't be silly. You sound like a kid who read R. Jordan first and believes he is the 'first' writer of fantasy epics. Your point of view is just that, YOUR point of view. It negates reality in no way whatsoever. Nor does it matter.

Thank You, I was starting to think that the obvious wasn't working.

Now, please excuse me, I got to sue this guy who ripped off my Hamlet story back in 1600.

 

[atgxtg]

atgxtg, In play I have found that it usually doesn't get used with lighter armor...the PCs tend to want to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible unless they can't get through at all. Did you notice you could use it one of two different ways? To hit a specific location, or to bypass armor anywhere they do hit? This suggests another layer of rules that we don't know about, that it will be useful whether the target is armored or not. And I bet there is more to it. I wonder if it is a cap on the maximum percntiles that can be used on a single attack? Whatever, I think we can only see part of the picture. Too soon to judge.

I would imagine that it wouldn't get used with lighter armor. It is the 4 pt+ range where is starts to be worthwhile. Esepcially with missle weapons. MOst missle weapons had a small chance of pentrating metal armor without getting a crit or implae. Now, even a poorly skilled archer stands a better chance of actually damaging a for by using it.

I don't mind a hit specific location called shot. But for those above 100%, especially those hitting to 150%+ mark, it is giving them a freebie-since bypassing armor is worth the reduction in critical and impale %.


Also, while some arugmnment might be made for the easy of bypassing the ancineint style of armor used in Glorantha (that left many areas open), it is going to wreck havoc with a High Middle Ages type of setting with Gothic & Maximillian plate. Could make a big difference in the Arthurian Sourcebook.

I don't see if it means another layer of rules. JUst that if you bypass armor you still have to roll for hit location. Still, you do have a point about not knowing what else is in the rules and how it all works with everything else in MRQ.

Let us also not forget that the bypass armor rule means that characters can bypass the Protection spell with it. Protection provides Armor Points.

BTW, One of the best "aiming" rules I ever saw foir a hit location game was the one used in Flashing Blades. There you state what location you are aiming at, and then roll D20 twice and take the hit location that is closest to your target. THis rule is simply, effective, and easy to swipe for RQ.

 

[SteveMND]

BTW, One of the best "aiming" rules I ever saw foir a hit location game was the one used in Flashing Blades. There you state what location you are aiming at, and then roll D20 twice and take the hit location that is closest to your target. THis rule is simply, effective, and easy to swipe for RQ.

Certainly simple. I always thought some linked variation would be nice. Say, when making a called shot, you state by how many percentiles you plan on reducing it by, and that determines the bonus to the hit location roll you get.

For example, for every 5% (or whatever) you take off your chance to hit, you get to adjust the hit location roll by 1 towards your intended target point. Take 25% off your skill for an aimed shot to the noggin? You get to adjust the d20 hit location roll by 5 points towards the head.

 

[atgxtg]

BTW, One of the best "aiming" rules I ever saw foir a hit location game was the one used in Flashing Blades. There you state what location you are aiming at, and then roll D20 twice and take the hit location that is closest to your target. THis rule is simply, effective, and easy to swipe for RQ.

Certainly simple. I always thought some linked variation would be nice. Say, when making a called shot, you state by how many percentiles you plan on reducing it by, and that determines the bonus to the hit location roll you get.

For example, for every 5% (or whatever) you take off your chance to hit, you get to adjust the hit location roll by 1 towards your intended target point. Take 25% off your skill for an aimed shot to the noggin? You get to adjust the d20 hit location roll by 5 points towards the head.

I like that idea. I'd also like taking a variable penatlty to hit to get a variable chance to bypass armor.


Timelords had the best way of handling that that I've seen yet. In that RPG you picked an aiming spot, and was off target by 1 location per point that you missed by. What was neat is that you missed in a direction (left, right, high, low, etc.), so if you missed by too much, you would miss completely. Aiming for dead center of chest gave you a wider marging for error than, say aiming for the right ankle. THe game did break down the body into a around 30 hit locations through, and used a D20.

 

[SteveMND]

THe game did break down the body into a around 30 hit locations through, and used a D20

Although I like the seven-area RQ-style breakdown of hit locations for ease of play, I will have to admit that there is something fundamentally satisfying about being able to make a called shot to the groin on your opponent.

 

[andakitty]

Ever read Aftermath? :roll:

 

[Mikko Leho]

However, doing this is much easier for fencing weapons than with aneicent and medieval weapons.

He actually teaches fencing with medieval swords and expressed his points with a long sword. I just used the term with broader meaning than an olympic sport. There is no denying that any half competent warrior would practise bypassing period armour, and the rules should represent this. We will later see how balanced the modifier actually is.

Let us also not forget that the bypass armor rule means that characters can bypass the Protection spell with it. Protection provides Armor Points.

Is there a spell called Protection in MRQ?

 

[Archer]

Your point of view is just that, YOUR point of view. It negates reality in no way whatsoever. Nor does it matter.

:shock:
And your's does?
Sorry, but it is this kind of unsympathetic BS comments that really pisses me off.

To him, Glorantha seems like a copy of the Warhammer world. That is his point of view. And points of view can differ greatly from facts. That does not make them less valid than anyone elses point of view.

Enough of this, further debate will not yield any result.

 

[atgxtg]

Your point of view is just that, YOUR point of view. It negates reality in no way whatsoever. Nor does it matter.

:That is his point of view. And points of view can differ greatly from facts. That does not make them less valid than anyone elses point of view.

Of course it does. Otherwise why get you Doctor's opinion on a medical matter? An opionion that contradicts facts is invalid.

 

[atgxtg]

Your point of view is just that, YOUR point of view. It negates reality in no way whatsoever. Nor does it matter.

:That is his point of view. And points of view can differ greatly from facts. That does not make them less valid than anyone elses point of view.

Of course it does. Otherwise why get you Doctor's opinion on a medical matter? An opionion that contradicts facts is invalid.

Imagine that it a courtroom:
"Well, the facts prove that you are innocnet, but in the Plantiff's point of view you are guilty, so we're going execute you."

 

[SteveMND]

Oh lordy, people. We're talking about one person's subjective impression of a game based on his previous experiences with a different game system, not a court of law. He merely said that to him, it felt like a poor copy of a system he had experienced before; he's not trying to establish any sort of great fundamental objective truths of the cosmos here, just expressing an opinion.

Sheesh! :roll:

 

[atgxtg]

However, doing this is much easier for fencing weapons than with aneicent and medieval weapons.

He actually teaches fencing with medieval swords and expressed his points with a long sword. I just used the term with broader meaning than an olympic sport. There is no denying that any half competent warrior would practise bypassing period armour, and the rules should represent this. We will later see how balanced the modifier actually is. [/quoote]

Ah. THat's different then. A know several peole who do modern fencing, and a couple of people who practice older forms of swordfighting. On topic that gets mentioned a lot is the differenes between moderne and older forms of sword fighting.

BTW, could you ask him what the effect, benefit of armor is? I for one would be interested in getting the option of someone with some practical experience.

Let us also not forget that the bypass armor rule means that characters can bypass the Protection spell with it. Protection provides Armor Points.

Is there a spell called Protection in MRQ?

I don't know. I certainly hope that there is something like it. Escpailly with all the new fweat like abilities that help to augment damage. We won't know for certain until the game is released.

 

[Archer]

Of course it does. Otherwise why get you Doctor's opinion on a medical matter? An opionion that contradicts facts is invalid.

Well, if a doctors tests show that you have cancer, then you have cancer. That is mostly a fact, not an opinion.

Two persons observing the same chain of events will have two different points of view, two different perspectives. In this instance a point of view can be true or false, because it directly disputes facts.

Two persons have different religious beliefs. They have two different points of view. Neither is less important or invalid. Simply because it is a matter of opinion and how things seem to that individual.

The last example is what is is relevant here. And what made me really pissed off.

Just because Glorantha seemed like a homage to the Warhammer world, a sort of copy of that setting, to that person, it does not mean that his point of view is invalid and does not matter.

To him that is how things seems, and though it disputes fact, that is his perspective.
To just dismiss his point of view on the setting, and say that it does not matter at all, just because his point of view contradicts facts or your own point of view, that is just unsympathetic and outright rude.

 

[Archer]

Oh lordy, people. We're talking about one person's subjective impression of a game based on his previous experiences with a different game system, not a court of law. He merely said that to him, it felt like a poor copy of a system he had experienced before; he's not trying to establish any sort of great fundamental objective truths of the cosmos here, just expressing an opinion.

Sheesh! :roll:

Exactly my point!
And to say that his opinion does not matter, well, I have already said it....

 

[RMS]

What I heard from a fencing instructor is that in real world one would always want to get past armour. He kept adverticing how in his classes students would be teached how to get past period armour. While I can't say whether -40% is too little or too much, a warrior skilled enough would always take the option to go past armour.

That's completely accurate. At most times in history, the best armor of the day is proof against the best weapons of the day. Ironically, D&D has that right: armor makes it more difficult to actually hit someone (bouncing off armor = not hitting here), but if a strike goes through it's most likely in an unarmored spot and does the same damage as if the person was unarmored. This is why this rule is a very good addition IMO. However, I reserve judgement about the specifics of the application.

 

[Enpeze]

I don't mind a hit specific location called shot. But for those above 100%, especially those hitting to 150%+ mark, it is giving them a freebie-since bypassing armor is worth the reduction in critical and impale %.

150%? whats this? Who has such a high value? My players tend to have 45-65% average and after years and much luck they have 75%. After 20 gaming just one player in my group managed to reach the 100%. He was one of the most excellent fighters in the whole kingdom.

150% are absolut unlikely. I cannot even imagine how many decades a person has to live a combat driven life to get such high percentages.

Just because the bypassing armor rule doesnt suit to combat halfgods with 150%, this means not that the -40% modifier is broken.It shows only that you have a ... more highpowered ...kind of playing RQ than I (and of course the rule-designers which created the -40% modifier) In this sense you could either lower the percentages of your protagonists to normal skill heights or you should give in your games in which 150%% are common a -60% or even a -80%.

I see skills in the following way
-green: 30% (common)
-standard: 50% (common)
-veteran: 70% (sometimes)
-master: 90% (rare)
-legendary hero (very rare, only NPCs) : 110%

 

[andakitty]

:lol:

I don't have a point of view about it, Archer. It annoys me when someone who *does* tries to pass it off as fact, in the face of fact. Don't let it get under your skin. That's just as silly.

Also there is the implication that whatever came before Warhammer was just a poor reflection of Warhammer? :lol: :lol: Please! Warhammer is a fine game and setting, but sure as sunrise not the first to use elements like chaos.

If he thinks Warhammer is a better rendition of something that came before that is understandable. Only an opinion, but understandable. The rest is only semantics, and the very worst kind of sophistry.

Now, pax, OK?

 

[RMS]

I don't mind a hit specific location called shot. But for those above 100%, especially those hitting to 150%+ mark, it is giving them a freebie-since bypassing armor is worth the reduction in critical and impale %.

However, it is still a reduction in those chances, so there is a penalty.

I don't see if it means another layer of rules. JUst that if you bypass armor you still have to roll for hit location. Still, you do have a point about not knowing what else is in the rules and how it all works with everything else in MRQ.

That was my take too is that you're sacrificing some skill to look for specific opportunities to attack in the joints of armor. We'll have to see how it plays. I really like the concept.

Let us also not forget that the bypass armor rule means that characters can bypass the Protection spell with it. Protection provides Armor Points.

Do we know this for certain? That would be true if we dropped it into RQ3 as the spell was written then. It may no longer be the case. I mentioned elsewhere that I've always run Shield as fully encompassing the individual so there's no opportunity to just bypass it. (Damage Resistence was written this way, but had other limitations.)

BTW, One of the best "aiming" rules I ever saw foir a hit location game was the one used in Flashing Blades. There you state what location you are aiming at, and then roll D20 twice and take the hit location that is closest to your target. THis rule is simply, effective, and easy to swipe for RQ.

I've always allowed players to pick a high or low shot with no penalty. That's pretty logical IMO. I could also see giving a minor penalty for it, but not much. Then I'd just have them roll either 1d10+10 or 1d10 for hit location.

 

[Enpeze]

Just because Glorantha seemed like a homage to the Warhammer world, a sort of copy of that setting, to that person, it does not mean that his point of view is invalid and does not matter.

Exactly. We are gamers not accountants. (well maybe some of us have this profession) Anyway who knows if Stafford did not really took some material from Warhammer? At least its proofed that he plagiated material from Tolkien, Moorcock and Walt Disney. :twisted:

 

[RMS]

150%? whats this? Who has such a high value? My players tend to have 45-65% average and after years and much luck they have 75%. After 20 gaming just one player in my group managed to reach the 100%. He was one of the most excellent fighters in the whole kingdom.

150% are absolut unlikely. I cannot even imagine how many decades a person has to live a combat driven life to get such high percentages.

I don't think 150% skills are all that unlikely in RQ. I mentioned earlier my Humakti and he had over 200% in his sword skill by the time we were done with the campaign. He is on the high power end of things, with multiple heroquests under his belt, etc. He also has a fair number of gifts from Humakt by this point, but the vast majority of that skill came from good ole' skill increases. Since the chances of a skill increase level off at your INT, there's always about a 10-15% chance of actually increasing a skill you use, so those skills keep climbing at the same pace once they hit 85% or so.

Just because the bypassing armor rule doesnt suit to combat halfgods with 150%, this means not that the -40% modifier is broken.It shows only that you have a ... more highpowered ...kind of playing RQ than I (and of course the rule-designers which created the -40% modifier) In this sense you could either lower the percentages of your protagonists to normal skill heights or you should give in your games in which 150%% are common a -60% or even a -80%.

I don't think you even need to go that far. Typically, those powerful characters are already splitting their attack in half to handle multiple opponents, so take that 200% sword skill I mention, knock it in half for two attacks at 100% and then reduce each to 60% for bypassing armor. The penalty is pretty substantial there. It's a real choice then of whether to deal with two opponents in a round or concentrate on one (who may well parry anyway).

I'll grant that if he's facing a single "average" opponent that 200% vs. 160% skill change is pretty marginal, but then it should be. He's extremely good. OTOH, it also give that "average" opponent some chance of actually bypassing his hard earned iron armor - the only way an average person can hurt him with most weapons. It cuts both ways.