Navy Logistics

[rinku]

Oh yeah. That'd do. Mineral refinery and an Advanced manufacturing plant.

That would seriously shorten supply lines for fleets. To the extent that such ships pretty well must exist. The Advanced manufacturing plant would be able to churn out Spares and personal level gear as well. There might even be other plants installed to cover other consumables, even food and clothing. Or at least the raw materials for autochefs and uniform printers.

 

[Vormaerin]

Robot Handbook P94 has a sidebar entry covering Agent Wafers that operate exactly how the wafer in AotI operates.

Yes? It's not in the core rules, it's not in the gear book. It's a sidebar in a tertiary supplement. AND IT IS NOT USED ANYWHERE. It is there if you want to add it to the setting. It's not part of the setting as written. The same with Warp Drives.

AotI has every imperial naval vessel carrying an assortment of these wafers. The three special agents, plus an collection of highly skilled technical experts. AotI says that when there's a disaster in the engine room, someone slots "Chief Engineer Scott" and has him fix it. There's a whole protocol so everyone who served in the Imperial Navy or the Imperial Marines (and probably other services) is fully aware of these things.

That's not the reality of any published game version of Charted Space. That is, in fact, unique to Marc's novel. Like a lot of those other elements I mentioned.

 

[ottarrus]

Hi all,

I recently posted about tugs. This morning, I was greeted with a new video by the Drachinifel YouTube channel talking about US Navy logistics during WWII.

The Battle in the Pacific has many parallels to space warfare. The distances are long. There are very few (heavily defended and valued) locations to base ships out of (islands in the Pacific, planets in Traveller).

Drachinifel does a great job talking about all the OTHER ships you need besides warships:

- Tankers (not everyone has the time or capability to skim and/or refine fuel)
- Ammunition ships (missiles get used up quickly)
- Logistics ships (food and other consumables) - including refrigerated ships that can produce ice cream!
- Hospital ships
- Repair ships
- Tenders for smaller vessels
- Travelling drydocks to repair damaged vessels
- Fleet Tugs
- Unpowered barges to provide forward storage of supplies
- Barracks Ships for replacement crews

While I realise these sorts of ships are not quite as sexy or exciting as warships, they are just as important.

One specific vessel that might be right there on the front line are the fast combat support ships. These combine the roles of tanker, ammunition resupply and refrigerated logistics vessels into one, with the same speed and range as the fleet. They travel with the battleships, carriers and cruisers, refuelling them, providing food, replacement missiles/sand canisters, supplies etc.

They would have defensive weaponry (to protect against fighters and small gunboats).

They would also be a priority target for the enemy, because they were more lightly built and armoured and represented a weak link.

- Kerry

I brought this up earlier when we were discussing replenishment underway for IN ships. You went farther with it than I did [I didn't think folks would appreciate another history lesson from me].

"Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics."
-- LGEN Robert H. Barrows, Commandant USMC 1980
"Logistics is the stuff you don't have enough of.... "
-- GEN Anthony Wayne, Continental Army 1777

 

[actionman]

I brought this up earlier when we were discussing replenishment underway for IN ships. You went farther with it than I did [I didn't think folks would appreciate another history lesson from me].

"Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics."
-- LGEN Robert H. Barrows, Commandant USMC 1980
"Logistics is the stuff you don't have enough of.... "
-- GEN Anthony Wayne, Continental Army 1777

Some of us always appreciate a history lesson. Such discussions and how they relate to Traveller are one of the reasons that set Traveller forums a step above many others.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes? It's not in the core rules, it's not in the gear book. It's a sidebar in a tertiary supplement. AND IT IS NOT USED ANYWHERE. It is there if you want to add it to the setting. It's not part of the setting as written. The same with Warp Drives.

AotI has every imperial naval vessel carrying an assortment of these wafers. The three special agents, plus an collection of highly skilled technical experts. AotI says that when there's a disaster in the engine room, someone slots "Chief Engineer Scott" and has him fix it. There's a whole protocol so everyone who served in the Imperial Navy or the Imperial Marines (and probably other services) is fully aware of these things.

That's not the reality of any published game version of Charted Space. That is, in fact, unique to Marc's novel. Like a lot of those other elements I mentioned.

You have Charted Space and you have everything else. What exists in Canon (published Mongoose setting books and whatever older editions that have not been retconned.) and what exists in the rulebooks are not the same. The rulebooks are designed so that you can build your own universe and are not limited by the tech of Charted Space. No novel is Canon as no novel is a gaming book. Each novel is that author's YTU.

 

[ottarrus]

Some of us always appreciate a history lesson. Such discussions and how they relate to Traveller are one of the reasons that set Traveller forums a step above many others.

Thanks for the support.
I have something of a 'pontifical' style when I get going on history. It's something that every historian has to deal with. As a group we get a little preachy and a more than a little arrogant. Because of all that, and because we're talking about a game, I try not get go into 'professor mode' too often. But I do appreciate the feedback. Thanks again.

 

[ottarrus]

You have Charted Space and you have everything else. What exists in Canon (published Mongoose setting books and whatever older editions that have not been retconned.) and what exists in the rulebooks are not the same. The rulebooks are designed so that you can build your own universe and are not limited by the tech of Charted Space. No novel is Canon as no novel is a gaming book. Each novel is that author's YTU.

I agree with a lot of this, MG.
There are two reasons why a lot of the really detailed stuff like squadron refueling times or underway replenishment gets glossed over:
- It has almost nothing to do with what's usually happening at the game table, and
- These details are within the realm of IYTU /referee on-the-fly decision making.
Now people like you and me, we're probably a little more granular and ticky-tack about it. Other folks just don't want to dive into that level of detail. Both approaches work.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I agree with a lot of this, MG.
There are two reasons why a lot of the really detailed stuff like squadron refueling times or underway replenishment gets glossed over:
- It has almost nothing to do with what's usually happening at the game table, and
- These details are within the realm of IYTU /referee on-the-fly decision making.
Now people like you and me, we're probably a little more granular and ticky-tack about it. Other folks just don't want to dive into that level of detail. Both approaches work.

I do have way more detail in My campaigns than most. That is likely true. lol! I bet My players, on average, see around 10% of the work I put into a campaign.

 

[rinku]

There was something like the agent wafer concept in Expedition to Zhodane, way back in CT.
So the possibility of personality override, at least as highly confidential, restricted and maybe experimental technology is there.

 

[Condottiere]

Not so much as the concept doesn't exist, or is unknown - Sector General series.

More, that it seems sort of sprung on us from nowhere.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Expedition to Zhodane gives us personality/memory overlay.
A JTAS article gave us mind/machine interface.
Memory Alpha shows that memory wipes and memory alteration are a thing.

 

[ottarrus]

So, exactly what does personality overlay and memory wipes have to do with naval logistics?

 

[MasterGwydion]

So, exactly what does personality overlay and memory wipes have to do with naval logistics?

You do not need as many replacement people if you can just upload whatever skills they need? No idea, just a guess...

 

[Condottiere]

That's if you assume time/effort gets divided by skill level.

It seems two reasons:

1. Policy direction/political commissar

2. Scotty

 

[Morgoth99]

one possibility is having logistics ships with J3 jump drives. It frees up a lot of space and while it harms their strategic manueverability, logistics ships traditionally aren't supposed to be as fast as combatants. They find a place, hang out and send their supplies/fuel up via dedicated and cheap transport vessels.

 

[Condottiere]

Navies have to figure out what they're comfortable with, in terms of logistical support.

 

[steelbrok]

one possibility is having logistics ships with J3 jump drives. It frees up a lot of space and while it harms their strategic manueverability, logistics ships traditionally aren't supposed to be as fast as combatants. They find a place, hang out and send their supplies/fuel up via dedicated and cheap transport vessels.

Maybe J2 ships with enough fuel for J4. Allows either 2 jumps or the extra acts as a supply for destroyers etc

 

[Geir]

Maybe J2 ships with enough fuel for J4. Allows either 2 jumps or the extra acts as a supply for destroyers etc

Then can't keep up with the fleet, or they run behind and need escort ships as they catch up, and stall the fleet in the mean time.
I like Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet books - at least they acknowledge the importance of support ships (and vector combat, even if some of his physics is questionable - though less so than almost any other space opera-ish books).

 

[rinku]

Sure. That's all Trillion Credit Squadron territory. Different authorities will have different requirements, and different ideas about what works (which do not have to be totally correct, or correct for others).

I would think the ideal for a Space Navy would be independence from external logistics, if they have the capability. Mine their own asteroids, scoop their own hydrogen, fabricate their own munitions, maintain their own closed loop life support (with reserves of food, water and air for emergencies). Higher technology and automation helps a great deal here.

Now that doesn't mean it's not cheaper or more efficient to buy the weapons, food etc from outside sources. Imperial taxes on a planet may well be expressed in terms of military rations or torpedoes. But some capacity to make their own stuff from scratch, especially during operations away from bases, makes sense. Or for a version of the bases to follow the fleets.

 

[ottarrus]

Keeping up with the fleet is a vital aspect to replenishment ships. All the food, fuel, and ordinance [not to mention the 10 billion spare parts and that case of whiskey you 'ordered' from that supply weenie back on Mora] do you absolutely no good if its all a parsec away.
Consider:
- At 10% hull tonnage per Jump number [or 8.5% with a really efficient drive], your battlewagon is only good for one long-legged strategic jump. You can divide it as much as you like, but the number still equals '5'.
- Navy ships practice wilderness refueling all the time, but in a wartime situation they don't like to do that. In wartime they expect to engage the enemy within hours of emergence. A bold commander will arrange his fleet's arrival so that they have J-1 or J-2 worth of fuel in their tanks and step off looking for a fight immediately after their fleet reconstitutes itself after emergence.
- If they're really smart, they jump fuellers with their forward squadrons to that they'll be ready to empty their tanks into the heavy ships immediately after the heavies emerge from Jump as is safe and practicable. The tankers can then refuel themselves as the main battle force goes into engage.