Navy Logistics
- Thread starter Sageryne
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I hear you. All I’m saying is that Mongoose might have decided that Makers (which I don’t know much about) were not what they were looking for and used fabricators as replacement tech for their version of Charted Space. If that is the case, they won’t ever make an appearance in the Mongooseverse.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I don't know. Their take is already different, so it wouldn't shock me if they did.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Three dee fabrication should be able to scale in size and sophistication.
Though, if overcomplicated, it might just be cheaper and faster to manufacture individual components, and assemble them.
Though, if overcomplicated, it might just be cheaper and faster to manufacture individual components, and assemble them.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I tried to figure out how makers are meant to work by looking in the T5 core book pdfs and utterly failed. I swear those books are designed to be obtuse. Can you point me at where a detailed explanation of how they work is spelled out? All I found were a few general statements and charts. For all I know, dark rites performed by chief petty officers are all that is required.
Yes. Because otherwise everything in T5 would be canon. And it clearly isn't.
What is in AotI that is reflected anywhere else in the game? The Mongoose gameworld does not reflect the level of waferjack technology or behaviors that are in that book. Is there anything in Mongoose that suggests every Imperial vessel has a collection of high skill wafer personalities to install in emergencies?
There's no support for the Vilani afterlife being a thing disembodied wafer personalities can hang out in and get info from. There's no reference anywhere in a game book to the that lockout command on the frontier fleets. The black ships aren't in any game book. The idea that you can just buy a low berth ticket to the far side of the empire doesn't match with how trade networks are explained.
"Canon" refers to published game materials. Not the novels. Not even Marc's novel.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Something that occurs to me is how arrival in a destination star system can't be precisely calculated. There is always a variance of however many hours (about 100 iirc?). That requires a fleet to wait around somewhere for its support squadron or vice versa. Everything would have to be coordinated in advance, and any delays would throw the whole synchronized movement schedule completely off. If the support squadron gets to the designated linkup system and the fleet isn't there, the support squadron commander has no way of knowing when the combat fleet will get there, or if it has been delayed, scattered, or destroyed. Meanwhile his squadron is out there by itself.
A better approach might be stationing a well defended support squadron at a star system within the combat fleet's jump range, and let it stay there until the battle lines substantially move. That way the combat fleet will know where their logistical rally point is, and it will be their responsibility to get there, replenish, and repair. Even if combat ships come limping in, each ship that arrives will strengthen the support squadron's defense elements. The combat fleet commander would have preplanned logistical rally points in the operational plan. This way the support squadron is in a somewhat safer position, and the combat fleets know where it is if they need it.
A better approach might be stationing a well defended support squadron at a star system within the combat fleet's jump range, and let it stay there until the battle lines substantially move. That way the combat fleet will know where their logistical rally point is, and it will be their responsibility to get there, replenish, and repair. Even if combat ships come limping in, each ship that arrives will strengthen the support squadron's defense elements. The combat fleet commander would have preplanned logistical rally points in the operational plan. This way the support squadron is in a somewhat safer position, and the combat fleets know where it is if they need it.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
No, no. That's 40K.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
1. In theory, ye Fleet Astrogator figures out the precise algorithm that if applied across the board, all coordinated starships exit at the, more or less, the same time, and place.
2. Which tends to indicate that getting the maths right, is half the battle.
3. The other half, would, presumably, be well maintained hardware.
4. How much time the starship experiences in transition is unrelated to the exit at the time and place.
5. However, exiting at not the time calculated for, though at the place it was, should shift the distance between the intended planetary end destination.
Yeah, that's one of the points of dispute. Mongoose has about 3 different rules for jump variance. And Traveller has had rules (and fiction) about naval vessels synchronizing their jump drives for greater precision, but I can't recall off the top of my head if those exist in Mongoose 2e.
But if they don't, it's definitely another issue of rather significant importance, exactly how critical depending on which version of the Mongoose 2e jump variation rules are in force.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Not since Trillion Credit Squadron, I think.
Robot Handbook P94 has a sidebar entry covering Agent Wafers that operate exactly how the wafer in AotI operates.
If you are growing meat then the TL8 bioreaction chamber is sufficient and can use any organic material as feedstock (wheat chaff is the example used). How many you need would depend on how much meat is required in the diet of the average spacer (or even traveller citizen). It might be a few litres per week.
As for the tankers, I am inclined to agree that a jump tanker doesn't make much sense. Each ship might as well have it's own refinery. A fleet of small craft tenders operating constantly to deliver the unrefined fuel makes more sense to me than a few large ones. The small ships can be more cost effective and still remain agile and having a lot of them means you need to kill a lot before you cripple the refuelling capability of the fleet. Time doing that is time you are not dealing with the fleet itself.
Once you have refuelled the fleet, the tenders can serve double duty as picket ships.
I think 18th century navies (or even steam navies) are a better analogy than 20th century navies. If you want to extensively resupply, you go at a resupply depot, you don't bring the depot to you. If you want to top off you can do a tour of friendly systems replenishing as you go, Jump 1 each time, reserving the majority of your fuel. Spend a week there showing the flag, boosting the local economy, managing leave and refuelling. You only need the Jump 3 and 4 to move quickly to take on an opposing force and even then you probably don't want to Jump 3 into combat as you have no way back. You probably Jump 3 to a non-hostile system Jump 1 away, replenish there and Jump 1 into battle. You can scatter your tenders around that system and they can load up on fuel in case you need to jump again to avoid pursuit.
The enemy will almost certainly guess that you will do that but if they want to do anything about it they have to deploy ships from the system the main fleet is in to cover all potential refuelling points within jump1 (or maybe 2) and your tenders are small and dispersed.
As for the tankers, I am inclined to agree that a jump tanker doesn't make much sense. Each ship might as well have it's own refinery. A fleet of small craft tenders operating constantly to deliver the unrefined fuel makes more sense to me than a few large ones. The small ships can be more cost effective and still remain agile and having a lot of them means you need to kill a lot before you cripple the refuelling capability of the fleet. Time doing that is time you are not dealing with the fleet itself.
Once you have refuelled the fleet, the tenders can serve double duty as picket ships.
I think 18th century navies (or even steam navies) are a better analogy than 20th century navies. If you want to extensively resupply, you go at a resupply depot, you don't bring the depot to you. If you want to top off you can do a tour of friendly systems replenishing as you go, Jump 1 each time, reserving the majority of your fuel. Spend a week there showing the flag, boosting the local economy, managing leave and refuelling. You only need the Jump 3 and 4 to move quickly to take on an opposing force and even then you probably don't want to Jump 3 into combat as you have no way back. You probably Jump 3 to a non-hostile system Jump 1 away, replenish there and Jump 1 into battle. You can scatter your tenders around that system and they can load up on fuel in case you need to jump again to avoid pursuit.
The enemy will almost certainly guess that you will do that but if they want to do anything about it they have to deploy ships from the system the main fleet is in to cover all potential refuelling points within jump1 (or maybe 2) and your tenders are small and dispersed.
A quick scan though High Guard shows several of the big ships (10KTon+) carry around 1/3 of their fuel tonnage in 50 ton craft (presumably modular cutters). Assuming these are general purpose craft that can be used to carry 30 Tons fuel, the average large vessel could be refuelled in 5 round trips if all small craft were pressed into service (which could be standard operating procedure). At thrust 4 a round trip might not take that long and a dedicated fuel transfer coupling in the small craft bay is not unlikely. Complete refuelling in under a day seems entirely credible.
The really big ships like the Tigress Class probably do need a dedicated tanker as the sheer number of small vessels needing to dock, pump fuel and then rotate out would be like midges round a cow. It would take 22 round trips each for it's 285 cutters to completely refuel it. Of course it would only take 6 round trips to give it enough juice for Jump 1 and even jump 1 moves it another week away and expands the list of possible destinations. Moreover if your Tigress is fleeing you are probably loosing so any jump is a bonus.
Processing the fuel will take the time so transferring the unrefined fuel is not the long pole in the tent. Of course if you are pressed for time, using unrefined fuel for a single jump with the skill levels of Navy Engineers and Astrogators is unlikely to be a significant issue. Of course fuel transfer goes both ways and you could have all your cutters loaded with refined fuel from the last safe refuelling operation which might save you a day and that might be just enough.
The really big ships like the Tigress Class probably do need a dedicated tanker as the sheer number of small vessels needing to dock, pump fuel and then rotate out would be like midges round a cow. It would take 22 round trips each for it's 285 cutters to completely refuel it. Of course it would only take 6 round trips to give it enough juice for Jump 1 and even jump 1 moves it another week away and expands the list of possible destinations. Moreover if your Tigress is fleeing you are probably loosing so any jump is a bonus.
Processing the fuel will take the time so transferring the unrefined fuel is not the long pole in the tent. Of course if you are pressed for time, using unrefined fuel for a single jump with the skill levels of Navy Engineers and Astrogators is unlikely to be a significant issue. Of course fuel transfer goes both ways and you could have all your cutters loaded with refined fuel from the last safe refuelling operation which might save you a day and that might be just enough.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You pick your objectives, and do a lot of island hopping.
Just getting back to fabricating missiles etc.
I wasn't limiting my idea to a 3D printer or something called a "fabricator", but thinking more along the lines of an actual munitions factory level workshop, likely completely automated.
There might be a component limit on how many munitions could be made without restocking (likely the avionics, especially at lower techs), but grinding up asteroids to build casings, propellant and warheads? Seems very doable at Stellar Techs. By the time we're up to TL15 I would not have any issue with them constructing the avionics too.
More expensive? Maybe. Essentially you're taking what exists to make the missiles in the first place (likely an automated factory in an asteroid belt) and installing it in a big warship. And it doesn't have to be a HUGE facility... maybe a mere few hundred dTons.
I wasn't limiting my idea to a 3D printer or something called a "fabricator", but thinking more along the lines of an actual munitions factory level workshop, likely completely automated.
There might be a component limit on how many munitions could be made without restocking (likely the avionics, especially at lower techs), but grinding up asteroids to build casings, propellant and warheads? Seems very doable at Stellar Techs. By the time we're up to TL15 I would not have any issue with them constructing the avionics too.
More expensive? Maybe. Essentially you're taking what exists to make the missiles in the first place (likely an automated factory in an asteroid belt) and installing it in a big warship. And it doesn't have to be a HUGE facility... maybe a mere few hundred dTons.
