Navy Logistics

[PsiTraveller]

I did a ship design of the Vulcan Class Logistical Ship. (Shameless Plug) for TAS. My thoughts mirror those on the board. The ability to make your spare parts from local asteroids or moons allows a shortening of supply lines.
I have not updated the ship to include fabrication chambers. A thought that while TL12 is the standard for the fleet the Fabricator might be a TL13 Enhanced model, or a GM boosted TL 14 to allow TL 12 replacement parts. This would be on a heavily guarded ship of course.

An interesting option for a fuel ship might be bladders like the Aslan Bulk Hauler Oukhaha class ship. Assuming the bladder is durable enough to survive exposure to space a ship could be smaller for Jump and then be a bulging sack of fuel that is fed by drones and supplies ships as they belly up for fueling. So the ship may store more fuel than it can Jump, and has to prep before Jump to pack all the storage bags away, but it could help solve some logistical issues.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I did a ship design of the Vulcan Class Logistical Ship. (Shameless Plug) for TAS. My thoughts mirror those on the board. The ability to make your spare parts from local asteroids or moons allows a shortening of supply lines.
I have not updated the ship to include fabrication chambers. A thought that while TL12 is the standard for the fleet the Fabricator might be a TL13 Enhanced model, or a GM boosted TL 14 to allow TL 12 replacement parts. This would be on a heavily guarded ship of course.

An interesting option for a fuel ship might be bladders like the Aslan Bulk Hauler Oukhaha class ship. Assuming the bladder is durable enough to survive exposure to space a ship could be smaller for Jump and then be a bulging sack of fuel that is fed by drones and supplies ships as they belly up for fueling. So the ship may store more fuel than it can Jump, and has to prep before Jump to pack all the storage bags away, but it could help solve some logistical issues.

Is TL-12 the standard for the fleet? Most Imperial Navy ships seem to be TL-15.

 

[Condottiere]

Remember, the Army needs feeding, as well.

 

[swordtart]

Remember, the Army needs feeding, as well.

Usually the army will be defending taken ground before it needs extensive replenishment (which would - again normally - be provided by navy supply ships). If the system space is still being contested, there isn't much point dropping a ground force since its ability to project power is entirely circumscribed. System based ships can support ground operations, the reverse is not generally true.

 

[swordtart]

Your navy could emerge at the far edge of the target system, deal with any local pickets and refuel long from tenders before any inner system naval assets could close to engagement range. You could then jump back out at any point if it started to look dicey.

Pluto is 6 billion Km out. That is several days at thrust 6.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Your navy could emerge at the far edge of the target system, deal with any local pickets and refuel long from tenders before any inner system naval assets could close to engagement range. You could then jump back out at any point if it started to look dicey.

Pluto is 6 billion Km out. That is several days at thrust 6.

Yeah. I always figured that it makes more sense to jump into a system by the Oort Cloud, refuel there, and then coast into the inner system under minimal power. As far as I am aware, patrolling the Oort Cloud is damn near impossible due to it's size.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah. I always figured that it makes more sense to jump into a system by the Oort Cloud, refuel there, and then coast into the inner system under minimal power. As far as I am aware, patrolling the Oort Cloud is damn near impossible due to it's size.

Due to distances in the Oort cloud and the fact you'd be scavenging ice to make it happen, that might take a significant amount of time and effort. J4 ships use a lot of fuel and even a week might not get them refilled and then local forces could arrive via jump 0. The locals would detect the jump flash unless all the ships had the stealth jump advantage and then the clock would start ticking.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on how large the invading force is, compared to the defending.

And that could be modified by their time tables.

 

[collins355]

"Invasion Earth", which is the only Traveller product to detail how an interstellar invasion might happen, divides the star system up into close orbit, far orbit (includes moons, in this case Luna), deep space and out-system. Deep Space includes the Oort cloud and is the only area starships can jump into from out-system. Importantly, the game has a rule that ships in deep space may declare they are hiding "using the vast expanse of the outer Sol system to elude contact from and thus hide from enemy naval units". But, in this game, a "hiding" unit is essentially ignored for most purposes in that it may not move further in-system, and doesn't affect play otherwise until it emerges from hiding.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Due to distances in the Oort cloud and the fact you'd be scavenging ice to make it happen, that might take a significant amount of time and effort. J4 ships use a lot of fuel and even a week might not get them refilled and then local forces could arrive via jump 0. The locals would detect the jump flash unless all the ships had the stealth jump advantage and then the clock would start ticking.

It takes light something like 10 days to reach to Oort Cloud from Sol, so you'll have time. lol

 

[Vormaerin]

There is no disputing that you would WANT replenishment ships and tankers that can keep up with the fleet. The question is now to make them (especially the tankers) have enough supplies to make that actually work. At best, a tanker can refuel one ship of its size since it is extremely unlikely you can fit the engines, bridge, and other necessary systems in significantly less than 20% of the ship. That's an insane demand. Especially since that demand is every jump.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which is why you build them bigger, they are almost jump capable space stations rather than tenders.

 

[Terry Mixon]

It takes light something like 10 days to reach to Oort Cloud from Sol, so you'll have time. lol

Jump 0 or, phrased differently, in-system jump. One week to the new arrivals. There is no range at which a jump flash isn’t detectable without being built for stealth jumps. That gives a hard deadline.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Jump 0 or, phrased differently, in-system jump. One week to the new arrivals. There is no range at which a jump flash isn’t detectable without being built for stealth jumps. That gives a hard deadline.

Then the invading fleet would be refueled, and the defenders would be empty? That seems like a good tactical situation.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Which is why you build them bigger, they are almost jump capable space stations rather than tenders.

I think most of the Imperial Navy's supply ships would be in the 10-million-ton range. Only way to top off a BatRon of Tigress Dreadnaughts.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Then the invading fleet would be refueled, and the defenders would be empty? That seems like a good tactical situation.

I’m unconvinced they would be refueled. Like I said, Oort objects are a long way apart and scavenging ice can’t be as fast as skimming a gas giant.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I think most of the Imperial Navy's supply ships would be in the 10-million-ton range. Only way to top off a BatRon of Tigress Dreadnaughts.

I made a logistics variant of the million-ton Warmonger Battle Tender. It’s not that big, but it can carry 800,000 tons of cargo and fuel pods.

 

[swordtart]

There is no disputing that you would WANT replenishment ships and tankers that can keep up with the fleet. The question is now to make them (especially the tankers) have enough supplies to make that actually work. At best, a tanker can refuel one ship of its size since it is extremely unlikely you can fit the engines, bridge, and other necessary systems in significantly less than 20% of the ship. That's an insane demand. Especially since that demand is every jump.

I am prepared to dispute it. As long as tenders are there when the fleet arrives from jump, it does not mean that have to leave from the same point or at the same time.

 

[swordtart]

Due to distances in the Oort cloud and the fact you'd be scavenging ice to make it happen, that might take a significant amount of time and effort. J4 ships use a lot of fuel and even a week might not get them refilled and then local forces could arrive via jump 0. The locals would detect the jump flash unless all the ships had the stealth jump advantage and then the clock would start ticking.

Your enemy detects a jump flash. It is still a jump flash a week away, you have no idea what it is. It could be a perfectly legitimate non-aggressor, it could be an enemy warship or it could be a decoy. What do you send, a small ship to investigate? Recon in force? Your whole fleet? If it is the enemies tenders (you don't need to harvest ice when the fleet arrives, you could begin harvesting ice in advance) they could be relatively small and few in number. What is the threat level? The whole point of the exercise might be to get you to shift your fleet, putting anything into jump means it is out of play for a week and may end up in exactly the wrong place at the wrong time.

In that week the enemy might have also moved a long way (I would). If we assume that you can only jump to objects in space then they could be a weeks travel from an object you can jump to. You might be able to detect jump flash at that range, you will not detect other emissions. You have a point in time and space, nothing more. The area you would need to quadrant would be vast.

So you know there is something there, you might even know that there are a lot of things there or there are big things there (depending on how you view jump flash) - at that sort of range you might get a bearing, but it is unlikely you would be able to get a fix so is small or far away Dougal? You also have no indication of where it will be in a week or even a few days time. It is not just how fast you can get there, it is predicting where you need to be.

I think that is what fleet action is like, bait and switch, putting astronomical bodies between your jump flash and the enemy, running silent running deep and relying on lots of pickets and luck.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Your enemy detects a jump flash. It is still a jump flash a week away, you have no idea what it is. It could be a perfectly legitimate non-aggressor, it could be an enemy warship or it could be a decoy. What do you send, a small ship to investigate? Recon in force? Your whole fleet? If it is the enemies tenders (you don't need to harvest ice when the fleet arrives, you could begin harvesting ice in advance) they could be relatively small and few in number. What is the threat level? The whole point of the exercise might be to get you to shift your fleet, putting anything into jump means it is out of play for a week and may end up in exactly the wrong place at the wrong time.

In that week the enemy might have also moved a long way (I would). If we assume that you can only jump to objects in space then they could be a weeks travel from an object you can jump to. You might be able to detect jump flash at that range, you will not detect other emissions. You have a point in time and space, nothing more. The area you would need to quadrant would be vast.

So you know there is something there, you might even know that there are a lot of things there or there are big things there (depending on how you view jump flash) - at that sort of range you might get a bearing, but it is unlikely you would be able to get a fix so is small or far away Dougal? You also have no indication of where it will be in a week or even a few days time. It is not just how fast you can get there, it is predicting where you need to be.

I think that is what fleet action is like, bait and switch, putting astronomical bodies between your jump flash and the enemy, running silent running deep and relying on lots of pickets and luck.

All true. I just wanted to point out that Oort Cloud refueling isn’t the slam dunk that was being presented. War is a pile of trade offs and sets of move/countermove. This, too, is what Admirals have to deal with on both sides.