2300 AD Deployment Logistics

[ottarrus]

So this one goes out to the all the ground military warheads. Paging @D Hebditch.
With the coming publications of Armies of the 5FW and 2300's Invasion, it got me thinking about the practicalities of deploying heavy forces [Armored and Mech Infantry divisions] on the battle fronts of the Käfer War. [OTU Third Imperium canon has ships and landers that can deploy every type of division in brigade sized lots wherever they wish, so they're not part of this discussion]
We have several canon facts when dealing with the question of how to get a tank division from Earth to the various battlefronts:
- Armored forces DO get transported in unit sized groups in several canon sources and in most non-canon fan creations;
- The 2300 milieu is a 'small-ship universe'. There are no 500 k-ton Tigresses or 1 million ton battle tenders in the milieu. The largest ship we have stats for is the Tallyrand-class battleship the Richlieu at 5000 tons;
- The largest published landers can only carry 4 wheeled /2-3 tracked or hover vehicles of APC or larger size;
- Landers require much more fuel to get to and from a world surface;
- The Aerospace Engineers Handbook specifically lists every military ship in commission or building in 2300AD. There are no 'ghost fleets' to save the day;
- Most of the vessels are not fully described. Some are called 'Assault Carriers' which, in my mind at least, means a marine troop carrier of some sort.
- The most troops carried aboard a warship that we have statistics for is 1041 aboard Richlieu, the second most is 300 aboard the Sufren class ships.
- There roughly 50 UNREP, tanker, or 'fleet support' ships in commission of all navies. This means that ships will have to be conscripted from merchantmen.

So, how would you guys organize getting an Armored Division of a minimum of 12000 troops and 1500 vehicles [of all sizes] from Earth to the battlefront on, say, BCV?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Slowly.

The range of a stutterwarp ship is the limitation, warp efficiency can be reduced by payload to it's minimum.

So you put your military in "barges" that are towed by stutterwarp ships to the destination.

Landing is the tricky bit, unless you go back to the good old fashioned one way trip. All you need is an ablative shield and a lot of parachutes.

There is a reason they get called dump boxes after a while...

Alternatively you don't mind making a nuclear wasteland of your landing site.

But the whole thing is silly.

By 2300AD you would just use drones, lots and lots of drones. The drone oversight would remain in orbit, along with the orbital support weapons.

 

[ottarrus]

Slowly.

The range of a stutterwarp ship is the limitation, warp efficiency can be reduced by payload to it's minimum.

So you put your military in "barges" that are towed by stutterwarp ships to the destination.

Landing is the tricky bit, unless you go back to the good old fashioned one way trip. All you need is an ablative shield and a lot of parachutes.

There is a reason they get called dump boxes after a while...

Alternatively you don't mind making a nuclear wasteland of your landing site.

But the whole thing is silly.

By 2300AD you would just use drones, lots and lots of drones. The drone oversight would remain in orbit, along with the orbital support weapons.

I can see a carpet of loiter munitions [which is what they're calling UAVs with Hellfires now] over the LZ once troops get on the ground, but I still think that you're going to want ortillery for major emplacements during the suppression phase.
[By 'ortillery' I mean conventional munitions, not nukes or asteroids. All respect to Kommodore Lutke, but there's no sense in wrecking a world's biosphere if you want to keep it at the end of the op.]
But really the question is 'how many ships and landers are you going to need to put a heavy force on the ground'.

 

[collins355]

The fandom supplement "Op Herkules" has a very detailed layout of a world capturing operation launched by German forces at Dunkelheim. It has a breakdown, at least theoretically, of transports and transported forces.

 

[ottarrus]

The fandom supplement "Op Herkules" has a very detailed layout of a world capturing operation launched by German forces at Dunkelheim. It has a breakdown, at least theoretically, of transports and transported forces.

Yep, I read that one too, Collins.
But this ship only has 12 landers aboard, presuming the artwork is accurate. That's 24 combat vehicles per landing cycle at the very most and that figure does not include casualties. And from the general hull size, the ship looks like it can only carry about 48 total vehicles.

 

[ross]

The possibility exists that this is not a realistic scenario given the background and technology. Since the use of force multipliers like drones and orbital strikes is considered a common practice it may not be necessary for the operational goals or capabilities.

 

[ottarrus]

The possibility exists that this is not a realistic scenario given the background and technology. Since the use of force multipliers like drones and orbital strikes is considered a common practice it may not be necessary for the operational goals or capabilities.

So there's an old adage about military operations. I forget who said it, it was either David Hackworth or Tommy Franks, but I wholeheartedly agree with it:
"Warfare at it's most basic form always comes down to terrain. You need it, they have it, and you have to go take it from them. You can do a hell of a lot to any given piece of terrain... you shell it, bomb it, 'area deny' it, nuke it, gas it, set it on fire... but until you put ten 19 year old kids with their weapons and a basic load on top of it and dare the other sum'bitch to come take it, that piece of dirt simply doesn't belong to you. All other methods of dealing with a target are break-even solutions to the tactical problem. There is no technology yet developed that can substitute for infantry."

We also have to take a couple other things into consideration:
- 90% of combat operations in the Käfer War are liberations... taking back human colonized worlds the bugs invaded and freeing humans from the Käfer yoke. That's gonna require boots on the ground.
- Canon sources in all four editions of 2300AD speak very plainly about the deep sense of environmentalism in the milieu as a result of the Twilight War. That war utilized nuclear, biological and chemical agents in large amounts and rendered wide portions of the Earth uninhabitable for decades. Humanity has developed a STRONG sentiment against using WMDs on any world that is suitable for colonization. While there might be orbital ordnance launched against an opponent, that ordnance is strictly ship-launched explosive types. No human commander will countenance the use of nukes or foreign body strikes [meteors, etc.].

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ordnance not ordinance. Ordnance is stuff that goes boom, ordinance are the bits of paper that tell you what to do.

If you really think humanity would not use WMDs following the Twilight War I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Terrain is a type of environment.

2. Proportional military response, to prevent escalation, yet emphasize deterrence.

3. Usually, all bets are off, once it gets existential.

 

[ottarrus]

Sig, Condo, you guys are parsing more than a little bit here.

1. I'll correct the spelling error
2. If you think that humanity is gonna drop WMDs on a human colonized world you're sadly mistaken. EVERY canon source we have on 2300AD, from the original T:23 boxed set all the way up to the Bayern boxed set, outright states that humanity as a whole will not support the use of nukes on a colonizable world. Even the 2320 edition from QLI states that military commanders kept the biological attack on the Käfer homeworld a secret buried in the Earth's mantle because the average citizen would lose their minds over it. The same source has DKSM Kommodore Lütze being exiled to Nibelungen because if he went home to Germany, he face trial for war crimes because the nuked a colonizable world.

 

[Arkathan]

Sig, Condo, you guys are parsing more than a little bit here.

1. I'll correct the spelling error
2. If you think that humanity is gonna drop WMDs on a human colonized world you're sadly mistaken. EVERY canon source we have on 2300AD, from the original T:23 boxed set all the way up to the Bayern boxed set, outright states that humanity as a whole will not support the use of nukes on a colonizable world. Even the 2320 edition from QLI states that military commanders kept the biological attack on the Käfer homeworld a secret buried because the average citizen would lose their minds over it. The same source has DKSM Kommodore Lütze being exiled to Nibelungen because if he went home to Germany, he face trial for war crimes because the nuked a colonizable world.

So, they would... and did... But they were ostracized for being homicidal/genocidal maniacs after the fact.

 

[Condottiere]

As they say, ask for forgiveness afterwards, rather than permission beforehand.

It tends to depend on the current stakes, in the sense that if the defenders still have strategic depth, they might be quite willing not to go nuclear.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sig, Condo, you guys are parsing more than a little bit here.

1. I'll correct the spelling error
2. If you think that humanity is gonna drop WMDs on a human colonized world you're sadly mistaken. EVERY canon source we have on 2300AD, from the original T:23 boxed set all the way up to the Bayern boxed set, outright states that humanity as a whole will not support the use of nukes on a colonizable world. Even the 2320 edition from QLI states that military commanders kept the biological attack on the Käfer homeworld a secret buried because the average citizen would lose their minds over it. The same source has DKSM Kommodore Lütze being exiled to Nibelungen because if he went home to Germany, he face trial for war crimes because the nuked a colonizable world.

I don't care what game authors say (and I need to go check the actual quotes), human nature is human nature. If the choice is WMD or the Kafer commit genocide the planet is getting nuked.

 

[ross]

So there's an old adage about military operations. I forget who said it, it was either David Hackworth or Tommy Franks, but I wholeheartedly agree with it:
"Warfare at its most basic form always comes down to terrain. You need it, they have it, and you have to go take it from them. You can do a hell of a lot to any given piece of terrain... you shell it, bomb it, 'area deny' it, nuke it, gas it, set it on fire... but until you put ten 19 year old kids with their weapons and a basic load on top of it and dare the other sum'bitch to come take it, that piece of dirt simply doesn't belong to you. All other methods of dealing with a target are break-even solutions to the tactical problem. There is no technology yet developed that can substitute for infantry."

Well if either of them said it, then it is not an “old adage”. It’s from the last 30ish years. Also, many “old adages” are flatly incorrect.

2300 is designed to tell stories within a narrative framework governed by the game system. If the system does not support it, then it cannot be a part of the game. That’s my opinion.

 

[ottarrus]

Note that the 2320AD edition is considered non-canon insofar as Mongoose 2300AD goes, although both works have the same lead author, Colin Dunn.
Just as with Mongoose's take on 5thFW, the Käfer War hasn't been decided yet. In the 5th FW, the Jewell Cluster has been taken by the Zhos. Perhaps Aurore, Hochbaden, and Vogelheim end up being conquered by Triumphant Destiny. We'll see when Invasion comes out.

And we are digressing again, some more, like we always do. The question is not WMDs, yes or no. The question remains:
"How long and by what methods are you going to get multiple heavy divisions [12-15000 troops plus heavy vehicles (tanks, heavy APCs, artillery, aerospace assets, plus supports) EACH] from orbit to the LZ of a defended world?"

One suggestion that I had not considered was launching drone loiter munitions over the LZ to help secure the 'beachead'. I have to admit that I have to remind myself that drone deployment is far, far more sophisticated now. Kudos to Sig for reminding me of that.

 

[Condottiere]

You could land drone armoured vehicles, first.

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

The largest barrier is getting stuff to orbit in the first place. Earth now has a Beanstalk, which will enable lifting larger formations and heavier equipment. Frankly, before the Kafer War, no-one had ever landed a division. The logistics of a planetary invasion probably meant it was considered impossible.

The Ground Vehicle Guide, Colonial Atlas etc. are pretty explicit in colonies having their own, separate, armies. To a large degree, their self-defence is going to be their own responsibility. The Aurore SB pretty well descibes the French military:

• Metropolitan troops are recruited from citizens and cannot legally be deployed outside of France, except during wartime. It includes Belgian units since after Flanders went independent, the rump of Belgium was annexed in France proper.
• Marine troops are raised from citizens, and can be deployed outside of France. There are upto a dozen battalions of Marines.
• The Foreign Legion are recruited from foreigners, and are prettymuch all deployed outside of France
• Colonial troops are raised as regular units outside France (i.e. in the Colonies etc.) are cannot be deployed to Metro France, but can deploy anywhere else. They are essentially the equivalent of Marines raised outside France.
  • By implication, there are probably African troops etc. with the same restrictions. The Belgian troops may have come under this category before the annexation into the Empire ca. 2297, and Catalonian and Swiss troops may be the same. T2k indicates the former German Rhineland was formally annexed and so German troops are metro.
• Militia troops are raised in the colonies etc., and cannot serve outside of the their colony except in wartime.

France, the largest expeditionary power, thus probably rarely moves anything as large as a brigade. They've deployed ca. 16 battalions to reinforce Aurore, including 1 of heavy armour (CC-21), 1 of hover armour, 1 of mixed hover armour/infantry, 2 of combat walker infantry, 2 of light recce vehicles, 1 air-portable, and 8 infantry battalions.

The American Marine Corps looks to be in good shape with the assets to land 2 brigades via the 6th and 8th Marine Interface Wings, but each Marine Interface Brigade is only ca. 1,200 strong with 6 combat battalions (3 infantry, 1 light armour, 1 APC and 1 CW infantry) and a couple of batteries. Since an infantry company is 80 men (5+75, from Mission: Arcturus) the MIB is organised into three battle groups of ca. 300 with 3 infantry coys, an APC coy, a CW coy and a hovertank coy. Essentially, an American Marine battalion is much smaller than a current one, and the brigade is about the size of the ground component of an MEU.

This means formations are a lot smaller than current ones, at least American ones. The American Marines might have 4 active divisions, but each is 4-5,000 strong - the strength of a modern brigade.

On Aurore, 14,000 militia man about 14 combat battalions plus support arms. Their battalions appear to be normal size. The small American unit size fits with a desire to keep the appearance of power whilst not having it. Like calling the Kennedy's "cruisers" whilst the French would call that a frigate.

Given a generally smaller military, landing a few thousand men on a colonial world is likely doable, especially since heavy equipment can come up the beanstalk. However, I suspect heavy equipment is left behind on said planet...