Musings on Hyboria's cultural level
- Thread starter Maximo
- Start date
Thanks for the tips, folks. Guess I'm going to have to make room for these linguistical houserules. Not that I place rules before adventure, but a bit of realism and logic don't hurt any game.
Now there remains the question about "Hyborian tech levels". Given there will be a book on equipment, hope it is answered. In the meantime, can anybody tell me of any culture which uses Stone Age (or primitive or whatever the Core book calls the ill-made weapons in the equipment chapter) implements except for the Picts?
Just curious.
BTW, isn't it possible, as Raven suggested, that, for example Cimmerians had good technology for making weapons but not were so good at building bridges (if they ever made one) making them "primitive" in this respect?
Zul Daire,
The Xutha & Xucholtl stuff is something quite intriguing. I think the "scientists" were, as in some Lovecraft stories, using what we would call magic (yet, it is science for them). I think there's a quote from Arthur C. Clark which says that the workings of a far more advanced civilization would seem like magic.
I really want Mongoose to probe further on the Xuthal/Xucholt lost civilizations theme. 8)
And Bregales, despite being a bit off topic, it is always interesting to hear about the Mook/Villain idea. It is something I've been using lately as it saves time (not to mention the frustration when a character which took half an hour to make goes off as the mook it was). :evil:
Now there remains the question about "Hyborian tech levels". Given there will be a book on equipment, hope it is answered. In the meantime, can anybody tell me of any culture which uses Stone Age (or primitive or whatever the Core book calls the ill-made weapons in the equipment chapter) implements except for the Picts?
Just curious.
BTW, isn't it possible, as Raven suggested, that, for example Cimmerians had good technology for making weapons but not were so good at building bridges (if they ever made one) making them "primitive" in this respect?
Zul Daire,
The Xutha & Xucholtl stuff is something quite intriguing. I think the "scientists" were, as in some Lovecraft stories, using what we would call magic (yet, it is science for them). I think there's a quote from Arthur C. Clark which says that the workings of a far more advanced civilization would seem like magic.
I really want Mongoose to probe further on the Xuthal/Xucholt lost civilizations theme. 8)
And Bregales, despite being a bit off topic, it is always interesting to hear about the Mook/Villain idea. It is something I've been using lately as it saves time (not to mention the frustration when a character which took half an hour to make goes off as the mook it was). :evil:
Do what works best for you and your group, I say.Maximo said:
Doesn't really bother me too much. This is covered in certain respects for example in the Aquilonia book (I was just looking up something for a player when I saw this post) and Pirate Isles also brings up ports or havens, how to detail them and how to build them up (quickly), for example. As far as your (Raven's) example of Cimmerians, sounds good to me. They didn't really build structures as I recall. Noted for their climbing, their barbaric endurance, they wouldn't be known for such civilized feats of engineering. I'd also make notes regarding the Asgardians: they'd build great sea dragon ships, fine weapons, but they're not known for walled cities or stone castles (as I recall, only the Hyperboreans have any stone keeps); and the same for the Vanir and their weapons. You could also say that these barbarians have taken weapons from fallen foes (not in the case of "The Frost Giant's Daughter" but on occassion, if taking the weapon of an enemy wasn't considered repugnant).Maximo said:
Yep, I know what you mean. Sometimes I've worked hard at making up what I thought was an important NPC, only to have a player ask me an offhand question, prompting an off-the-top-of-my-head tossing out a name, and all of a sudden the party desperately wants to get involved with this new person and ignores my original designs. :shock: Honestly though, some of my best sessions were ones that quickly went off track, and became on-the-fly adventures!Maximo said:
Etepete
Mongoose
The germanic tribes of the roman era lived in hovels and crude longhouses, still they had excellent iron age weapons traded from the romans.
The vikings had excellent fighting-gear and ships for their age, yet had few cities and no proper castles, only ring-forts. Viking culture stressed the status in being a good craftsman: focused on small crafts, smithing and shipbuiding.
Similar mechanisms could account for Nordheimr and Cimmerian equipment excellence in an otherwise rather crude culture. (not that the vikings were all that primitve at all)
The vikings had excellent fighting-gear and ships for their age, yet had few cities and no proper castles, only ring-forts. Viking culture stressed the status in being a good craftsman: focused on small crafts, smithing and shipbuiding.
Similar mechanisms could account for Nordheimr and Cimmerian equipment excellence in an otherwise rather crude culture. (not that the vikings were all that primitve at all)
I had forgotten the trade factor.
Interesting.
This is the kind of subject which I think the forthcoming guide on equipment needs to explain. That is, which cultures trade among themselves (I don't think Gundermen will sell their weapons to Cimmerians with their defeat at Venarium still fresh), the crafts these cultures excel at, and which are their weak spots.
BTW, guess nothing real life history to look for RPG ideas.
Interesting.
This is the kind of subject which I think the forthcoming guide on equipment needs to explain. That is, which cultures trade among themselves (I don't think Gundermen will sell their weapons to Cimmerians with their defeat at Venarium still fresh), the crafts these cultures excel at, and which are their weak spots.
BTW, guess nothing real life history to look for RPG ideas.
Hello Folks,
Raven has got a good grasp of the setting I think. I usually use the anology of the Late Roman period mixed with the early Middle Ages (1000s). It's actually not unusual from what I've read and studied that tribal cultures lived next door to highly advanced cultures. The Germans, Celts or Goths all lived right next door to the Hellenistic Greeks and Romans at one point or the other and all interacted to a great extent. Even more "primitive" cultures such as the the Lapps and Finns (who did aquire ironworking skills) also existed well into modern times in Artic Europe. Really not that far fetched.
As for the ruling class living in palaces while the ruled lived in grass huts, well you've just described the Maya, ancient Kush, Zimbabwe, ect. It seems to a realtively common set up in the tropics. It seems that such "huts" are simply a matter of resources available. The houses of the peasants in Europe are of wattle and daub with thatch roofs. Comparatively similar in structure really.
Roman cities routinely had city-wide sewers (seen as cost effective as it kept down sickness. They saw cause and effect if not why), centrally heated bath houses open to the public (same reason as before), aquaduct fed fountains scatterd throughout the city (as before), and public flow-toilets (over twenty at a location). The rich and well off could have running water, central heating, and private flow-toilets. I would check out a few book on Roman enginering to get an idea of what a Iron Age civilization could do.
As for the towers and domes I would check out just what the Romans and later Byzantines and Arabs (who learned from the Persians and Byzantines) could do. Get some good books on such. I recommend David Maculay's books. Sure they are for children but the line illustration style makes for quick understanding, they are extremely accurate, easily understood, excellent for quick reference, and for showing examples to players. The books I use are "Castle" for a High Medieval castle (Harlech in this case), "City" for a Roman city, and "Cathedral" for a Gothic cathedral.
Some quick examples though of what I mean.
Until the Rennaissance the largest domes were built in Rome and Constantinople (both cities of over a million at their height) These rival any domes built in modern times still.
The Gothic cathedrals of the 14th cent. on were some of the tallest structures in Europe and the world outside the pyramids until the Eifel Tower. Some reached over nine stories tall or better.
The Coloseum held up to 75,000 (standing) and over 50,000 (sitting) and is still the blueprint for stadiums and the efficient funneling of crowds to this day. It still has not been improved upon. The Circus Maximus held over a quarter of a million for chariot races and rivals many Olympic forums to this day in size and granduer.
The Greek designed theater enables a person sitting in the last row to hear a whisper from the stage and once again has never been improved upon engineering-wise. Never underestimate our ancesters.
The Romans also had something resembling a modern open air shopping mall and a psuedo-stock exchange.
I'll say one thing, while slave labor makes much of what the Romans built possible (I'll leave it to GMs whether you use the Roman-style mix of skilled and unskilled slave labor) and more than a couple of Kingdoms have the wealth needed, many lack the Roman level of organization or their drive. I see only Auqilonia and maybe Turan having this scale of organizational skill combined with the drive. Sure it would be only to keep down unrest and disease, but I see the Church Of Mitra approving.[/u]
Raven has got a good grasp of the setting I think. I usually use the anology of the Late Roman period mixed with the early Middle Ages (1000s). It's actually not unusual from what I've read and studied that tribal cultures lived next door to highly advanced cultures. The Germans, Celts or Goths all lived right next door to the Hellenistic Greeks and Romans at one point or the other and all interacted to a great extent. Even more "primitive" cultures such as the the Lapps and Finns (who did aquire ironworking skills) also existed well into modern times in Artic Europe. Really not that far fetched.
As for the ruling class living in palaces while the ruled lived in grass huts, well you've just described the Maya, ancient Kush, Zimbabwe, ect. It seems to a realtively common set up in the tropics. It seems that such "huts" are simply a matter of resources available. The houses of the peasants in Europe are of wattle and daub with thatch roofs. Comparatively similar in structure really.
Roman cities routinely had city-wide sewers (seen as cost effective as it kept down sickness. They saw cause and effect if not why), centrally heated bath houses open to the public (same reason as before), aquaduct fed fountains scatterd throughout the city (as before), and public flow-toilets (over twenty at a location). The rich and well off could have running water, central heating, and private flow-toilets. I would check out a few book on Roman enginering to get an idea of what a Iron Age civilization could do.
As for the towers and domes I would check out just what the Romans and later Byzantines and Arabs (who learned from the Persians and Byzantines) could do. Get some good books on such. I recommend David Maculay's books. Sure they are for children but the line illustration style makes for quick understanding, they are extremely accurate, easily understood, excellent for quick reference, and for showing examples to players. The books I use are "Castle" for a High Medieval castle (Harlech in this case), "City" for a Roman city, and "Cathedral" for a Gothic cathedral.
Some quick examples though of what I mean.
Until the Rennaissance the largest domes were built in Rome and Constantinople (both cities of over a million at their height) These rival any domes built in modern times still.
The Gothic cathedrals of the 14th cent. on were some of the tallest structures in Europe and the world outside the pyramids until the Eifel Tower. Some reached over nine stories tall or better.
The Coloseum held up to 75,000 (standing) and over 50,000 (sitting) and is still the blueprint for stadiums and the efficient funneling of crowds to this day. It still has not been improved upon. The Circus Maximus held over a quarter of a million for chariot races and rivals many Olympic forums to this day in size and granduer.
The Greek designed theater enables a person sitting in the last row to hear a whisper from the stage and once again has never been improved upon engineering-wise. Never underestimate our ancesters.
The Romans also had something resembling a modern open air shopping mall and a psuedo-stock exchange.
I'll say one thing, while slave labor makes much of what the Romans built possible (I'll leave it to GMs whether you use the Roman-style mix of skilled and unskilled slave labor) and more than a couple of Kingdoms have the wealth needed, many lack the Roman level of organization or their drive. I see only Auqilonia and maybe Turan having this scale of organizational skill combined with the drive. Sure it would be only to keep down unrest and disease, but I see the Church Of Mitra approving.[/u]
Hello Folks,
Agree totally. I'd forgotten Argos wealth-wise and enginnering skill-wise. However I don't see the Argive ruling class bothering to share such services city-wide. They've struck me as being less organized and pragmatic in such matter than the Aqualonians. Maybe somebody here who's a hardcore Howard scholar could clarify this?
Agree totally. I'd forgotten Argos wealth-wise and enginnering skill-wise. However I don't see the Argive ruling class bothering to share such services city-wide. They've struck me as being less organized and pragmatic in such matter than the Aqualonians. Maybe somebody here who's a hardcore Howard scholar could clarify this?
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Yogah of Yag has some interesting Language thoughts. Bump.
I wouldn't give Nemedia short shrift. If anything they're a more scholarly and advanced, but not totally decadent, culture than Aquilonia. So I'd expect to see very impressive architecture and the rest there.
Quick note about the Aesir and the Vanir. We don't know that they actually had dragonships. The Aesir are actually landlocked.
Quick note about the Aesir and the Vanir. We don't know that they actually had dragonships. The Aesir are actually landlocked.
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Amalric looked up at the girl who knelt beside him, talking in her gentle, unknown tongue. As the mists cleared from his brain, he began to understand her. Harking back into half-forgotten tongues he had learned and spoken in the past, he remembered a language used by a scholarly class in a southern province of Koth.
--Drums of Tombalku
--Drums of Tombalku
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