Historic Vilani-Zhodani contacts?

[randymcdonald]

Were there any historic Zhodani-Vilani contacts in the era of the Ziru Sirka?

The classic Vargr adventure, that contact with the Zhodani or the Vilani were equally likely for anyone in the spaces between the two human empires. (The giveaway was that the Zhodani used psionics and possessed higher technology, including jump-3.)

I am not aware of any direct interactions between the two civilizations. Vargr raids are given as a secondary cause of the Ziru Sirka's fall, while the presence a couple of sectors away of another human-led empire isn't mentioned at all. We can presume that the Zhodani did know something of the Vilani. Two Luriani caravans fleeing the conquest of Ley Sector made it to zhodani space by -4100, so the Zhodani did know of the empire-building proclivities of the Zhodani from an early date.

If it hadn't been for contact with the Solomani, I wonder if the Ziru Sirka might have been headed for a bruising at the hands of the Consulate. Zhodani and Vilani civilizations seem to have been equally ethnocentric in their own ways. While neither may have been particularly expansionistic, both empires were actively involved in dealing with the turbulent Vargr-populated regions between them. Even without broader technological superiority over the Vilani, the Zhodani possession of jump-3 alone would give the Consulate one of the Terran Confederation's two key advantages over the Ziru Sirka. Zhodani psionics could have been another advantage coming completely out of left field. The Zhodani might not have conquered Vland, although the Vilani homeworld would have been rather closer to the front lines of a Zhodani war than it was to any Terran-triggered conflict, but they could have been a significant threat.

I wonder if institutional memories of the Ziru Sirka might have at least contributed to the Consulate's rather aggressive defense of its sphere of influence. Solomani influence notwithstanding, the Third Imperium is a direct successor to the Ziru Sirka. Keeping aggressive imperials from the direction of Vland far away may be a directive of very long standing.

 

[GypsyComet]

A contact that early would have come before the Consulate reached its final size, and *might* have caught them in a mood to expand far enough to threaten Vland, but the Zhodani had never been much for careless expansion. As you say, such a campaign would have had the Vargr as a constant concern over a multi-sector supply line. It would probably have involved neutralizing the Vargr first, then taking down Vland. That's a campaign to rival the Nth Interstellar War, and centuries in the execution.

 

[randymcdonald]

A contact that early would have come before the Consulate reached its final size, and *might* have caught them in a mood to expand far enough to threaten Vland, but the Zhodani had never been much for careless expansion. As you say, such a campaign would have had the Vargr as a constant concern over a multi-sector supply line. It would probably have involved neutralizing the Vargr first, then taking down Vland. That's a campaign to rival the Nth Interstellar War, and centuries in the execution.

The Luriani caravans made it to Zhodani space two millennia before the Interstellar Wars. Presumably the Zhodani learned from the Luriani their reasons for fleeing their homespace, so the Zhodani would have acquired knowledge of the Vilani early on. Would the Vilani necessarily have been so well informed? I wonder if the Vilani might not have known.

A conflict between the two human empires would have been something that both polities would have needed to plan for, but by that late date the Zhodani wouldn't and the Vilani couldn't. The only way I can imagine a conflict happening would be by chance. The Vilani react badly to this growing psionics-using higher-tech-having empire and something happens?

I'm curious as to why the Zhodani weren't seen by the Vilani as a potential threat. If the upstart Terrans were, breaking out of their pocket into wider Kushuggi and suggesting that human space might be led by another human power, then surely an older and more powerful Zhodani Consulate would be an equal threat? Even if things were quiet, there'd be issues.

 

[dragoner]

Do you mean the Loeskalth? http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Loeskalth

 

[GypsyComet]

Two thousand years before the Terrans would put that migration during the Consolidation Wars period, before the Vilani even officially formed or named their empire.

Note that the corridor of stars through Corridor and Windhorn is rough going for J2 ships, with only a couple paths available. It is nearly impossible for J1, which helps explain why the Vilani didn't expand in that direction. Only a few rogues were out that way to encounter the Vargr, and none of them got so far afield as to meet the Zhodani, who would have been operating almost two sectors beyond their borders of the time just to get to Deneb and Tuglikki, never mind Corridor and Windhorn. Neither empire was known for reckless exploration, which is why it took the Vargr popping up between them to complete the circuit. Even that started around the backside of the Windhorn Rift, in a region that some material (GT, to be honest) suggests was a lot farther from the center of Vilani space than the map suggests.

Charted Space is a lot harder to get around in when J2 is the maximum and most civilians will never own a ship that can do it. In that sense the Ziru Sirka is a lot larger than the Third Imperium. There is no X-Boat service, J2 is government only, and the only "free trade" is owned and run by Vilani. The Age of the Vilani bears very little cultural resemblance to the Third Imperium.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I have always wondered why the Vilani didn't expand through the gap between the Windhorn and Greater Rifts into the Marches and beyond.

Given how far they explored rimward, NOT expanding to Spinward doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Canon is conflicted in the ability of early Vilani ships to be able to jump into empty hexes, but to expand to the regions that they canonically did expand into, then they must have been able to do empty hex jumps, so there is NO reason they they couldn't expand spinward.

With empty hex jump capability, there is no such thing as a Jump Gap of any kind. It just takes LONGER to make the trip - 3 jump-1 is 3 weeks as opposed to a single Jump-3, but it can be done. There is nothing preventing a Jump-1 ship from having 30% volume jump fuel and making 3 jump-1s between worlds.

I am NOT trying to open up another flame war about EHJ etc. but since Canon contradicts itself, each Referee will have to come up with their own reason why the Zhodani and Vilani didn't come into contact and why the Vilani didn't expand Spinward.

 

[GypsyComet]

I have always wondered why the Vilani didn't expand through the gap between the Windhorn and Greater Rifts into the Marches and beyond.

Given how far they explored rimward, NOT expanding to Spinward doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Canon is conflicted in the ability of early Vilani ships to be able to jump into empty hexes, but to expand to the regions that they canonically did expand into, then they must have been able to do empty hex jumps, so there is NO reason they they couldn't expand spinward.

The only thing that makes sense is if they were capable of "empty hex" jumps but not "empty space" jumps. Find a mass, jump to it, then jump from it to bridge the gap. The trick is then finding the right masses to jump to. Not every gap will have them, or have them easy to locate.

To head off the inevitable sensors debate, I am not convinced that the Vilani had as much of TL9-10 nailed down as some people believe. Finding deep space rocks would not have been simple or easy for them. Getting a tight enough location fix to jump to and from a deep rock may well have been a challenge.

Also, the Vland Main is huge. They didn't need to use deep space jumps until their Main was fully explored, so the capability may not even have been there until they had been in space for centuries. The easy paths, where one jump bridge would get them a whole new Main, would have been far preferable to painstaking survey work for every step, which is what you need to get through Corridor.

They were essentially alone in the universe for centuries. No wars to drive technology. Necessity drives innovation, and they had very little of either. Again, GT suggests that they didn't even have long-term life support tech until they encountered the Suerrat, and that was almost two thousand years after first developing jump drive. For that entire time, no orbitals, no colonies in truly hostile places, and no ships cheerfully staying in space for months at a time; get to a world where you can change out your air, or die.

Add in the historically justified Vilani paranoia that the universe was out to get them ("Deathbots! Deathbots Everywhere!") , and you get some level of explanation for why it took them thousands of years to expand and didn't go very far spinward.

 

[randymcdonald]

Do you mean the Loeskalth? http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Loeskalth

No. Humaniti states that many of the generation hips belonging to the Luriani's Wurlana subculture travelled far from Ley sector, two making it to Zhodani space around -4100.

The Loeskalth are another example of a culture from Vilani space that fled in the general direction of the Zhodani.

They were essentially alone in the universe for centuries. No wars to drive technology. Necessity drives innovation, and they had very little of either. Again, GT suggests that they didn't even have long-term life support tech until they encountered the Suerrat, and that was almost two thousand years after first developing jump drive. For that entire time, no orbitals, no colonies in truly hostile places, and no ships cheerfully staying in space for months at a time; get to a world where you can change out your air, or die.

Add in the historically justified Vilani paranoia that the universe was out to get them ("Deathbots! Deathbots Everywhere!") , and you get some level of explanation for why it took them thousands of years to expand and didn't go very far spinward.

It sounds as if it could be a real possibility, between Zhodani technological superiority and the flight of refugees in their direction, that the Zhodani knew something about the Vilani for a good long while but that the Vilani knew little if anything about the Zhodani. Neither empire would have been inclined to aggression against the other owing to their internal preoccupations, though, I wonder, if the Zhodani had been closer ...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Well, if the Zhodani were unwilling to help the Darryen who were right on their doorstep, I could see them wanting to avoid the Vilani as long as possible.

Once the Consolidation Wars started, the Zhodani might have been VERY uninterested in making contact with the Vilani. While the Zhodani were slightly expansionistic, they don't seem to be interested in galactic supremacy like the Vilani and later the Solomani were.

Also, when did the first Core expedition occur and how does that fit into the Vilani timeline? Maybe the Zhodani just had another interest at the time.

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, if the Zhodani were unwilling to help the Darryen who were right on their doorstep, I could see them wanting to avoid the Vilani as long as possible.

The Zhodani were avoiding the Darrians because they thought that the Darrians had triggered the Maghiz themselves and might come out shooting. If super-flares were contagious, the Zhodani wanted none of that.

The Zhodani attitude can also be explained if you recenter your view on them. Looking to Trailing they see loud-n-rowdy Vargr three sectors deep, then a pair of big rifts (Greater and Windhorn) and only THEN do you get to the Vilani. SEP.

 

[darue]

It's quite possible the Zhodani were aware of the existence of the Vilani but not the other way. A handful of Zhodani agents, would likely have had no trouble positioning themselves in the upper ranks of the Vilani and psionically ensure they didn't expand through Corridor and focused instead in other areas. They might even have seen to it that Ziru Sirka leadership chose to ignore the irrelevant minor border skirmishing with the Terrans.

Descendants of those Zhodani agents could also have seen to it that the resulting bubble of the Rule of Man was popped.

Cleon (or someone later) may have become aware of this, and fear of this is at the heart of Imperial sanctions vs psionics.

 

[randymcdonald]

It's quite possible the Zhodani were aware of the existence of the Vilani but not the other way. A handful of Zhodani agents, would likely have had no trouble positioning themselves in the upper ranks of the Vilani and psionically ensure they didn't expand through Corridor and focused instead in other areas. They might even have seen to it that Ziru Sirka leadership chose to ignore the irrelevant minor border skirmishing with the Terrans.

Descendants of those Zhodani agents could also have seen to it that the resulting bubble of the Rule of Man was popped.

Cleon (or someone later) may have become aware of this, and fear of this is at the heart of Imperial sanctions vs psionics.

Reading Behind the Claw just now, there's a short passage in the history section suggesting that the Vilani did know about the Zhodani and feared their psionics.

This does run somewhat contrary to Interstellar Wars' suggestion that neither Vilani nor Terrans had any idea that psionics existed, but, argh.