Fedayeen and Suppression

[Hiromoon]

I think they'd be moving when ammo belts were changed or barrels.
Or firing was in a different direction. It's not a human reaction to keep going into fire like that.

You'd think that....unfortunately that wasn't the case. Otherwise they'd never move (Benefit of the water cooled machine guns were you didn't need to change the barrels, and of course you can link belts together).

This is kind of the equivalent of a Napoleonic cavalry unit being given horses immune to fear of charging an infantry square.

Not really, this is more of the Napoleonic column of troops marching towards a line of men firing at them.

 

[Shadow4ce]

Just over 850 Medals of Honor have been awarded to US service personnel since the beginning of WWII. 616 of these were awarded posthumously.

On October 26, 1944 Fifty-five Japanese pilots attempted Kamikaze attacks in the face of incredible fire. 5 US and Australian ships were sunk. Over the next few months over 2000 planes made such attacks.

In Mogadishu, on the afternoon of October 3, 1993 during Operation Gothic Serpent, 100s of the 2-4000 Somali Militia, especially those of the Habar Gedir clan stood up to the US Army Ranger and Delta Task Force. Many of these militia had been chewing Khat, a euphoric drug related to amphetamines which causes one to be a bit braver than one normally would be. Many of these boys stood in the street firing AK-47s and RPGs at the US troops, even while M2 .50 cals and various US small arms were mowing them down. I've personally had to take down people drugged out of their mind on Methamphetamines, cocaine, and other stimuli.

Conclusion drawn - Under extraordinary circumstances (Heroic sacrifice of self for others), or when guided by certain mindsets (Kamikaze & Fedayeen), or when influenced by chemicals (Habar Gedir militia and drug-criminals) sometimes, no matter how much hot lead is sent down range, not everyone will be suppressed. But, with enough lead, everyone can be stopped dead.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I think they'd be moving when ammo belts were changed or barrels.
Or firing was in a different direction. It's not a human reaction to keep going into fire like that.

You'd think that....unfortunately that wasn't the case. Otherwise they'd never move (Benefit of the water cooled machine guns were you didn't need to change the barrels, and of course you can link belts together).
.

Sorry but that is wrong! Barrels on machine guns even with water-cooling still need changing and ammo belts don't last forever.

Quote:
This is kind of the equivalent of a Napoleonic cavalry unit being given horses immune to fear of charging an infantry square.


Not really, this is more of the Napoleonic column of troops marching towards a line of men firing at them

Not at all. The horse analogy refers to psychology, same as suppression. The column of troops aren't under intense fire until the last 50 yards at which point they usually DID turn tail and run!

 

[Hiromoon]

True, but by then you're either shelled to death or ordered to retreat, EP. Otherwise you WILL be there a long, long time.


And psychology for animals is different for that of human beings. The squares worked in two ways, first, horses don't like sharp pointy things, and second, it's hard to circle a square.

Just over 850 Medals of Honor have been awarded to US service personnel since the beginning of WWII. 616 of these were awarded posthumously.

On October 26, 1944 Fifty-five Japanese pilots attempted Kamikaze attacks in the face of incredible fire. 5 US and Australian ships were sunk. Over the next few months over 2000 planes made such attacks.

In Mogadishu, on the afternoon of October 3, 1993 during Operation Gothic Serpent, 100s of the 2-4000 Somali Militia, especially those of the Habar Gedir clan stood up to the US Army Ranger and Delta Task Force. Many of these militia had been chewing Khat, a euphoric drug related to amphetamines which causes one to be a bit braver than one normally would be. Many of these boys stood in the street firing AK-47s and RPGs at the US troops, even while M2 .50 cals and various US small arms were mowing them down. I've personally had to take down people drugged out of their mind on Methamphetamines, cocaine, and other stimuli.

Conclusion drawn - Under extraordinary circumstances (Heroic sacrifice of self for others), or when guided by certain mindsets (Kamikaze & Fedayeen), or when influenced by chemicals (Habar Gedir militia and drug-criminals) sometimes, no matter how much hot lead is sent down range, not everyone will be suppressed. But, with enough lead, everyone can be stopped dead.

Yep. You can also use examples from the Korean War and Vietnam for this too....

 

[emperorpenguin]

True, but by then you're either shelled to death or ordered to retreat, EP. Otherwise you WILL be there a long, long time.


And psychology for animals is different for that of human beings. The squares worked in two ways, first, horses don't like sharp pointy things, and second, it's hard to circle a square.

Some of them are still there and being ploughed up.......

Have to disagree, the preservation instinct is identical. Humans CAN act against it in extreme cases. We disagree as to whether that includes ignoring suppression.
The square worked on the animal's fear of death from sharp pointy things and was also effective because you had infantry 4 deep facing a handful of cavalry at a time.

 

[cordas]

Found with 1 search on google within about 15 seconds, I am sure I could find hundreds of such references with ease.

At 8 p.m. on 6th August 1915 the advance started, the 4th Battalion having the honour of finding the advanced guard. After covering two miles of very broken and difficult ground covered with boulders and prickly scrub the battalion reached the nullah of the Achyl Dere, its deployment position. Here it was fired on from a trench on the far side, but D Company in the lead dashed across with a cheer and carried the trench with the bayonet. The battalion then crossed, wheeled to its right in the darkness, and by 1.30 a.m. after dealing with several parties of Turks on the way had secured its objective on Damakjelik Bair, a very fine piece of work.

Quote taken from http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/brecon/fact_sheets/11.htm

It was all part of the military training, read any of the reports from the Battle of the Somme and you will see countless tails of brave men climbing out of the trenches (often over the bodies of the last wave) and marching into the machine gun fire. Yes some of the men did drop wounded and killed but others followed their orders and paid for it with their lives.

 

[Hiromoon]

Thanks Cordas.


EP, during the avent of Victorian-era fighting, you get the initial training to ignore animal instinct...as beneficial as it is to one's life and limb, a soldier has to over come that when in the field.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Just over 850 Medals of Honor have been awarded to US service personnel since the beginning of WWII. 616 of these were awarded posthumously.

On October 26, 1944 Fifty-five Japanese pilots attempted Kamikaze attacks in the face of incredible fire. 5 US and Australian ships were sunk. Over the next few months over 2000 planes made such attacks.
.

Ignoring chemicals the plane can't be used because the physical barrier it provides protects you from suppression plus you are flying! No one will argue that humans are incapable of self sacrifice, but whether they are immune to suppression is tougher.

We don't know how many of those 616 ignored suppressive fire. Colonel H Jones of the Paras in the Falklands apparently did (and died earning a VC) but I really would hesitate before making untis "immune" to suppression, resistant yes, but immune no

 

[emperorpenguin]

Here it was fired on from a trench on the far side, but D Company in the lead dashed across with a cheer and carried the trench with the bayonet. .

That does not equate to ignoring suppressive fire though! We don't know how many guns there were and how many soldiers they fired at. If there weren't many it would be impossible to suppress an entire battalion!

 

[cordas]

We don't know how many of those 616 ignored suppressive fire. Colonel H Jones of the Paras in the Falklands apparently did (and died earning a VC) but I really would hesitate before making untis "immune" to suppression, resistant yes, but immune no

At the end of the day its just a game mechanic, just as not all models that suffer a hit are killed. The Feds are portayed to be those few men who are so fearless / commited to their cause that they will carry on until broken beyond the ability of 30seconds head down to recover.

You could easily alter the fluff to say that some of the individual models in the feds have their nerve break and it breaks in such a fashion as they become usless (this could equally apply to every army and infantry unit).

 

[Hiromoon]

Here it was fired on from a trench on the far side, but D Company in the lead dashed across with a cheer and carried the trench with the bayonet. .

That does not equate to ignoring suppressive fire though! We don't know how many guns there were and how many soldiers they fired at. If there weren't many it would be impossible to suppress an entire battalion!

Funny, I thought it was a Company strength unit....

 

[cordas]

Here it was fired on from a trench on the far side, but D Company in the lead dashed across with a cheer and carried the trench with the bayonet. .

That does not equate to ignoring suppressive fire though! We don't know how many guns there were and how many soldiers they fired at. If there weren't many it would be impossible to suppress an entire battalion!

You are right it doesn't give exact numbers of troops on either side. but they did charge a prepared trench in Galipoli, where the Turks where very heavily dug in, in fact so heavily dug in that they rebuffed the Allied assault with ease and inflicted huge causalties, so it is reasonable to assume they came under heavy fire. It is meerly one example of thousands that are available. Go and look for yourself, or watch any of the documentaries about WW1, they are full of such stories and occasionaly archive film footage.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Here it was fired on from a trench on the far side, but D Company in the lead dashed across with a cheer and carried the trench with the bayonet. .

That does not equate to ignoring suppressive fire though! We don't know how many guns there were and how many soldiers they fired at. If there weren't many it would be impossible to suppress an entire battalion!

Funny, I thought it was a Company strength unit....

Well......

At 8 p.m. on 6th August 1915 the advance started, the 4th Battalion having the honour of finding the advanced guard. After covering two miles of very broken and difficult ground covered with boulders and prickly scrub the battalion reached the nullah of the Achyl Dere, its deployment position. Here it was fired on from a trench on the far side, but D Company in the lead dashed across with a cheer and carried the trench with the bayonet. The battalion then crossed, wheeled to its right in the darkness, and by 1.30 a.m. after dealing with several parties of Turks on the way had secured its objective on Damakjelik Bair, a very fine piece of work.

D company lead the battalion, there was a battalion present. We still don't know how many machine guns there were. If there were only 1 that would not be enough to suppress a company of 120+ so this really isn't "proof" of immunity to suppression.

I take your point on the game mechanic but "real world" I don't think you can prove it.

 

[emperorpenguin]

You are right it doesn't give exact numbers of troops on either side. but they did charge a prepared trench in Galipoli, where the Turks where very heavily dug in, in fact so heavily dug in that they rebuffed the Allied assault with ease and inflicted huge causalties, so it is reasonable to assume they came under heavy fire. It is meerly one example of thousands that are available. Go and look for yourself, or watch any of the documentaries about WW1, they are full of such stories and occasionaly archive film footage.

Not all trenches are equal though, some would be better defended than others.

I have watched and read plenty thank you! :wink:

 

[Hiromoon]

Well, how about we stick you out in the middle of a field, tell you the only way you're getting out of it is to charge a fortified position, and we'll see what happens next.


Afterwards, we'll give you thirty other people to run with.

Incidentally, when someone says a Person is intelligent, but people are stupid, they're usually right.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Well, how about we stick you out in the middle of a field, tell you the only way you're getting out of it is to charge a fortified position, and we'll see what happens next.


Afterwards, we'll give you thirty other people to run with.

Incidentally, when someone says a Person is intelligent, but people are stupid, they're usually right.

I'm not charging anyone with my leg! Think Patrick Swayze in North and South!

If enough lead is flying heads will stay down, it is when the fire eases for whatever reason that soldiers move again, they are trained to think like that

 

[Locutus9956]

No offence Old soldier, but in your time as a soldier did you ever actually fight someone who is, essentially a suicidal fanatic? Who not only expects, to, but INTENDS to die. Troops like that are not terribly likely to get pinned by fire!

The other thing to remember is that the suppression rules in BF evo are very abstract. Just becsause a unit is immune to the supression rule in the game (doesnt lose its next action etc) is not to say the unit is ACTUALLY fearless and imune to real life supression merely that they are capable of taking normal combat actions (or at least functioning better than other similar troops) while supressed.

It's one of my pet peeves when people say stuff like 'thats not how it works in real life and I should know, I was in the army and therefore know everything in the universe related to combat' and then completely fail to aknowledge the possibility that maybe, just MAYBE, the rules in a fairly simplistic wargame should not be taken copletely 100% litterally. BF Evo, is not at its core all that complex and every rule, including supression is essentially a fairly grey area covering all sorts of factors, actuall supression is one of those factors but thats not the only one!

 

[Shadow4ce]

...the plane can't be used because the physical barrier it provides protects you from suppression plus you are flying!

Agree with the physical barrier giving one a sense of protection if one was doing a "normal" bombing run in the face of fire. And, one could argue the Fedayeen are indoctrinated enough to believe that Allah will be said barrier. But I won't make this arguement as I have no idea what the Fedayeen religious dogma is.

My point was not the ability to ignore fire, but the mindset they knew they were going to die before the battle even took place. Once an individual has decided death is going to happen, no amount of firing is going to suppress them.

There is an actual term here in the US for criminals who have decided they want to die and will point a (sometimes completely empty) firearm at police. The term is "Suicide by cop." Fortunately we have a new toy called the Taser, but I digress.

I see the Fedayeen as a suicide IED force who realize their life will be a failure and they will not get to Allah if they do not complete their suicide run and take a few infedel westerners with them. In this case, I can easily envision them making suicidal charges to destroy the enemy. What about Banzai charges during Iwo Jima and other island campaigns? What about the D-Day landings?

I think the biggest difference now is the fact that for all intents and purposes of suppression, every soldier now has a "machine gun." This, ep and others, is your point I believe: "Nowadays, it is much more difficult to understand a mindset which could still advance or even return fire in the face of the volume of firepower we now possess in a single infantry squad." For the most part, I agree and would consider it a great rarity. However, I've seen enough weirdness in this world to make me hesitate to categorically say it could never happen. In fact, I would have to say it can and does happen. I believe the Fedayeen rules limit how many of their units you can have, so I think this is where we can wrap our heads around it.

Do I like or understand it? No, but I don't like or understand it in real life either. Will it make the game fun and challenging? Yes! And isn't this the most important thing? The game being fun?

 

[Locutus9956]

Incidentally, when someone says a Person is intelligent, but people are stupid, they're usually right.

You need only read the forums for a while most days to confirm that one

 

[cordas]

Well, how about we stick you out in the middle of a field, tell you the only way you're getting out of it is to charge a fortified position, and we'll see what happens next.


Afterwards, we'll give you thirty other people to run with.

Incidentally, when someone says a Person is intelligent, but people are stupid, they're usually right.

As long as its paintball I am up for it I used to have a reputation for being that 1 idiot in a white t-shirt who charges the enemy positions and gets away with it (I am sure it was just the shock factor of is there really a 6 foot skinhead in a white t shirt with animal from the muppets on it really charging us? Oh ^%&^*% yes.... why didn't we shoot that 6 foot tall nutter in the white t shirt.... oh it was too late by the time we understood what was going on)

Its really hard to get the examples you want written the way you want EP from historical texts as they don't tend to be written in a style that takes the rules for wargames into account. However there are plently of accounts of companies, units and squads of men charging defended positions and either dying or taking the position.

This is just a game, and the fed's being immune to suppression is just a rule that shows how fantical they are and what that allows them to do, without this rule it would be next too impossible for them to charge tanks / APCs and attack them with IEDs.