Expanding grappling

taylor

Mongoose
Does anyone have any ideas for expanding the grappling system to include not only general wrestling and pins as it does at the moment, but also submissions, like chokes, armbars, kneebars and so on? I know about the choke feat, but it's much more akin to a strangle than a choke.
So far I've considered taking a submission feat (with improved grapple as a pre-req) or letting anyone with the improved grapple feat use submissions as a combat manouever.

As for how they work, I'd say a grapple check vs 2 of the opponent's opposed Escape Artist checks. Success results in a broken limb or unconsciousness depending on the nominated submission. Obviously it only works on human opponents (although Beowulf like arm bars could be very cool...)

Does that sound ok?
 

ricardo440

Mongoose
hmm interesting.

I always assumed that grappling was a series of moves like you suggest, in the same way an attack with a sword is a series of attacks lunges, ripostes and paries.

How about a feat that when you do damage in a grapple the vicitm must make a save or lose the use of a limb untill healed.

So you use the grapple dealing damage, but then they must make a save or it is even worse.
 

Yogah of Yag

Mongoose
I'm trying to find ways to flesh out the "Martial Disciple" class from S&P30, and these ideas may be useful.
Since so much emphasis in Conan RPG is already on the use of weapons, I feel it appropriate to come up with more concepts for unarmed combat.
 

taylor

Mongoose
I've seen crushing grip, but I don't believe submission grappling is limited to the very strong, and I'm also after a "proper" choke effect.

I own Finest and Fiercest, but am still waiting for Fallen to get here. Can you tell me what dirty grapple does?
 

Voltumna

Mongoose
Dirty grapple is an option for thief-barbarians and you can take it in second barbarian level. If you win an opposed grapple check that you make at -2, your opponent is stunned for 1d6 rounds.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
I don't consider the grappling rules to cover anything but hanging on for dear life. It's not even wresling in a basic sense the way it's presented in the rules. It's more or less a "hold 'em still" mechanic to facilitate sneak attacks and coup de grace.

Choking should crush someone's windpipe and submissions and joint locks can break limbs in real life. In essence, going strictly by game mechanics, they would translate as coup de grace attempts, however one usually doesn't start a choke on an opponent already rendered helpless - it's usually the aim of the choke.

What I'd say is use the Pinning rules and then have damage be CON for chokes and DEX for joint locks and breaking limbs. The damage dealt could simply be STR or DEX bonus each round the target remains Pinned (depending on what the attack used to get the hold, since unarmed attacks can be finessed) so that agile martial artists can grab an elbow and render that joint helpless quickly with thier high DEX bonus. The problem there is that just the stat bonus as damage would be too low (a STR +2 attacker would need over 6 rounds to choke a CON 13 foe). Better that it be a stat check to set a DC for the opponent to roll against. The ammount by which the defender misses this test acts as a multiplier for the stat bonus delivered by the attacker.

For example, Thurg has pinned Ulric. He elects to snap Ulric's shoulder, and so starts a submission attempt by rolling 1d20+his STR+3 bonus. He gets a 19 setting that as the Submission Damage DC. Ulric tries to resist by rolling a CON bonus + 1d20 test. If Ulric fails by 4, having rolled a 15, then that would be 12 points of CON damage that Thurg has dealt. If Ulric had failed by more, say in rolling an 8 and thereby missing the DC by 11, that instance would deal a whopping 33points of CON damage.

An additional mechanic could be applied that allowed success to aid the Pinned individual by making the difference of success convert into bonuses to break the Pin during the off-set strength tests that requires. In other words, if Ulric had rolled a 26, beating the damage DC by 7, then he'd get a +7 to his next attempt to break Thurg's Pin/Grapple.
 

Zul Daire

Mongoose
How about a feat called "Finishing Move"

An atomic leg drop from some nordheimer would be cool!

Or what about a nobleman slapping on the old Figure 4 Leg Lock when his bluff and diplomacy checks fail!! Whooo!

Sorry couldn't resist. :lol:
 

Voltumna

Mongoose
I just came through a feat called Choke Hold in Oriental Advetures. It has as prerequisites Improved grapple and Stunning fist. If you pin your opponent for a full round, at the end round he has to make a Fort save DC10 + 1/2 your level + Wis modifier. If he fails he is uncounscious for 1d3 rounds.

The feat could be adopted into CRPG, or maybe a combat maneuver using Stunning attack or Crushing grip.

Stunning fist works almost as the mentioned feat, so if you used it while grappling it could have that alternate effect.

Crushing grip can be devastating, though given the moderate damage inflicted by a grapple, and the fortitude save for half damage, it can take time to subdue an opponent if he has high ability scores. Still, anyone with a constitution taken below 10, could very well have the sense to give up, you could also use an alternate rule where if he fails the saving throw, he could become uncounsciuos for some time, instead of dealing ability damage.

And a question: can you use Power attack with a grapple?
 

Deadpool

Mongoose
I had a character play a Khitai Soldier / Scholar. Which ended up being a Khitain Monk. I took some of the Oriental Feats and transferred the ones over that made sense. I also changed the choke maneuver to be more powerful (that is in an old thread) and got rid of the choke feat.

Let me know if anyone is interested in the Khitain Monk archeatype and the new feats and I can send it over to them.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Voltumna said:
And a question: can you use Power attack with a grapple?

I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't think so. I'd have to read specifically what action they correspond to (standard or move), but I belive that PwrAtt is intended to add a damage bonus, whereas Grappling causes no damage in and of itself.

However, since a grapple is achieved off of a standard successful attack, then a subsequent STR test, PwrAtt might seem to work in concert with it to the extent that you're still risking a miss on the attack roll, but getting a bonus to the grappling STR test if the hit is successful. I'd allow that anyway.
 

Bushido

Mongoose
taylor said:
Does anyone have any ideas for expanding the grappling system to include not only general wrestling and pins as it does at the moment, but also submissions, like chokes, armbars, kneebars and so on? I know about the choke feat, but it's much more akin to a strangle than a choke.
So far I've considered taking a submission feat (with improved grapple as a pre-req) or letting anyone with the improved grapple feat use submissions as a combat manouever.

As for how they work, I'd say a grapple check vs 2 of the opponent's opposed Escape Artist checks. Success results in a broken limb or unconsciousness depending on the nominated submission. Obviously it only works on human opponents (although Beowulf like arm bars could be very cool...)

Does that sound ok?

WOW, now you're talking. Being a submission martial artist myself (in real life), I would really like to add those moves into my game!!!
 

taylor

Mongoose
We've tested it out a bit and changed it a little. We now use a new skill, Submission (dexterity being the influencing skill). The check is therefore a grapple check + total submission check vs the opponents escape artist check (that they can reroll once). This way you can have skinny little brazillian jui-jitsu blokes, big expert wrestlers with no submission skills, or even a mix of the two.

It's worked out really well so far. Quite a few tough armoured opponents have been taken out by the characters working together to blindside them with a grapple, then choke, then coup de grace.
 

Bushido

Mongoose
taylor said:
We've tested it out a bit and changed it a little. We now use a new skill, Submission (dexterity being the influencing skill). The check is therefore a grapple check + total submission check vs the opponents escape artist check (that they can reroll once). This way you can have skinny little brazillian jui-jitsu blokes, big expert wrestlers with no submission skills, or even a mix of the two.

It's worked out really well so far. Quite a few tough armoured opponents have been taken out by the characters working together to blindside them with a grapple, then choke, then coup de grace.

How do you deal with grappling check and submission check in a fight? How do you deal with damage applied by a submission? Broken limbs? In reality, if your submission "scored", thats it, its over. If the opponent does not tap, goodbye his arm, its broken.

I'd really like to have your thoughts on this.
 

taylor

Mongoose
Bushido said:
How do you deal with grappling check and submission check in a fight?
Chokes can only attempted on a standing foe if flanked. Otherwise, all chokes and submissions can only be attempted if you are pinning, or have been pinned by an opponent.

How do you deal with damage applied by a submission? Broken limbs?
We use a very harsh system that most people don't like. You HP is equal to your Con x2 plus any toughness type feats. Critical hits don't effect HP, you roll seperately on the critical hit chart we have. A broken arm results in a 33% reduction (rounding up) to dex and obviously limits the character to what they can carry and use and do. They take 1d3 months to heal (though there is a rate of improvement each month obviously). Broken legs are a 50% reduction to dex, and the character can't walk without help. They take 1d4 months to heal.

Either triggers the wounded fury feat.

In reality, if your submission "scored", thats it, its over. If the opponent does not tap, goodbye his arm, its broken.
Pretty much. Grappling an opponent, with the HP rules we use, is very dangerous anyway. Is it cool seeing a big opponent madly thrashing about with his sword at the PCs, with 1 arm dangling down useless by his side, especially a barbarian with wounded fury. It also makes the PCs think about evacuating their wounded comrade or pushing on for the treasure/quest goal. Brutal, yeah, but we like it like that. :)

Forgot to add, the Submission skill is a class skill for Soldiers and Khitan scholars only.
 

Voltumna

Mongoose
taylor said:
We've tested it out a bit and changed it a little. We now use a new skill, Submission (dexterity being the influencing skill). The check is therefore a grapple check + total submission check vs the opponents escape artist check (that they can reroll once). This way you can have skinny little brazillian jui-jitsu blokes, big expert wrestlers with no submission skills, or even a mix of the two.

It's worked out really well so far. Quite a few tough armoured opponents have been taken out by the characters working together to blindside them with a grapple, then choke, then coup de grace.

There is a feat in Shadizar City of Wickedness that allows you to use your Dex modifier instead of Str for grapple checks. The feat is Slippery, and only needs Improved grapple as prereq.
 
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