Feats as Maneuvers?

[sbarrie]

Does anybody else feel that some of the newer Conan feats should be more accessible? Some of the feats in Road of Kings are nice, but not really worth spending a feat for.

Because of this, I'm turned the following Feats into Combat Maneuvers in my campaign:

Choke
Prerequisite: Crushing Grip (maybe just Improved Grapple? Choke doesn't seem very useful)

Kick Down the Door
Prerequisite: Improved Overrun and Improved Sunder

Warning Shot
Prerequisite: Intricate Swordplay (Note that Warning Shot as written can't be done with a ranged weapon! Odd.)

 

[Sutek]

I could see improving Choke to stun a enemy that gets free from the Choke Hold for 1 round per CON point number of rounds spent in the Choke rather than a flat "1". In other words, now, if you break free, you're stunned for a round. If it changed to my liking, and I held you in a Choke for 6 rounds then you break free, you'd be stunned for 6 rounds too.

Personally, having Choke jsut deal STR+CON non-leathal damage to the held individual woul dmake sense too.

Alternatively, if escaping were a full round action (which it is I belive) then Choke is really not so different from any other hold except normal holds do no damage ata all and at least this form does something as written. You could look at it that way.

The main thing about the KDD feat is that you catch any opponents on the other side Flat Footed and you can move in. I mean, say you'v ebeen banging away and there's guys on the other side waiting...so what. You come barrelling through and they're Flat Footed that round regardless. It's a really good feat on top of that because it offers a partial charge as well, so somebody's head is getting lopped as well.

The prereqs for Warning Shot, however inappropriately named it may be, are Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus. For the shaken effect, it does seem that two feats as prereqs is a bit much, and I'd have prefered to see it be a single attack using you CHAmod instead of STR/DEX to get the free Intimidate check, but that's me...

 

[sbarrie]

The above prerequisites are what I'd use for the Combat Maneuvers, not the current prereqs for the feats. Just in case it wasn't clear.

While Kick Down the Door has a nice effect, how often would it come into play? I'd say that the Charging-and-Breaking-Things-Guy should be able to do it automatically. If he's doing overruns regularly, that's his thing. Maybe I could up the prereqs to Greater Sunder and/or Greater Overrun. Or toss Improved Bullrush into the prerequisites.

Yeah, an Intimidate check plus an attack is worth a feat. An Intimidate check (with bonuses) instead of doing damage sounds like a good combat manuever to me.

And Choke seems realistic, but weak. Again, making it a combat maneuver for anybody with Improved Grapple seems fair. If you want to really squeeze the life out of somebody like a pro, take Crushing Grip and do Con damage.

 

[Sutek]

Oh, I see. You're talking about upping the restriction/prerequisites and making them more ubiquitous as Combat Manuvers regardless of class limitations as they may be now.

I'm not so sure I'd do it, but as long as it fits your style of campaign, you dcan do what you like, of course.

Choke should probably be a little worse on the virtual damage side, in my opinion. It works as is, but it seems like a base feat and not one that requires prereqs. Why you'd want to do that instead of Grip, as you say, is beyond me. It's not even an attack opotion meant to keep people alive. Perhaps simply making the save DC 10+STR bonus of the Choker. SOmeone then with a STR22 (6) would force a DC16 test that gets +1 harder each turn. Keep in mind that one failure drops the victim to 0 HP and then dying next round. That's pretty rough. Anything but weak, my friend.

How often would KDD come into play? As often as you the GM hide bad guys behind doors, I guess. (lol) It really does aford a free charge where normally you'd ahve to bust the door in, wait, step in, take a bunch of AOOs agaisnt you and then strike at one of the sneaky mooks. With this feat you get to bust the door in and charge one of them before they can react, catching the Flat Footed and denying them a DEX bonus to DV in the process. That can be brutal in this system. I mean, that coul dbe one less mook right there with a good Finesse hit or a high damage roll.

 

[sbarrie]

Oh, I see. You're talking about upping the restriction/prerequisites and making them more ubiquitous as Combat Manuvers regardless of class limitations as they may be now.

Well, none of the feats I'm talking about have class limitations. But yes, making them more ubiquitous is my goal.

Choke should probably be a little worse on the virtual damage side, in my opinion. It works as is, but it seems like a base feat and not one that requires prereqs.

Perhaps simply making the save DC 10+STR bonus of the Choker. SOmeone then with a STR22 (6) would force a DC16 test that gets +1 harder each turn. Keep in mind that one failure drops the victim to 0 HP and then dying next round. That's pretty rough. Anything but weak, my friend.

One failure, but only after their breath runs out in their Constitution worth of rounds. If you're capable of holding someone for 10 rounds (for an average Con), plus the time it takes for them to fail their save, you could probably do something a lot worse to them instead.

The only advantage is if they do break out (on their action, I presume), they lose their next round as well.

Am I terribly misunderstanding that feat?

 

[Sutek]

No, you aren't misunderstanding it. It kinda stinks. (lol)

One other awspect, in fact, that you didn't mention was that (A) it's not a grapple attack, but a product of a successful grapple opposed roll with the opponent and (B) it only lasts one round (ROK pg189). So, in essence, to get a choke, you have to successfully grapple your opponent (opposed STR test after a successful unarmed strike) and then you simply state you are doing the choke. On your opponent's turn after he's been grappled, he can make an Escape Hold action and not provoke and AOO (?!?), thuse forcing another grapple roll-off. Then on your turn again that same round, you have to make another roll-off and win to declare 1 more choke round. And so on...

...not worth it.

If the Save were immediate with each successive successful hold and choke round (eg. First round: DC10+STRmod+0. Second round: DC10+STRmod+1. etc.) then choking can force the individual to pass out without reaching the CON limit in rounds.

Curiously, even though it says one can hold one's breath for CONx2 rounds, there's no indiation of if that's a Full or Half round or Move equivalent or what kind of action. It matters, right? I'd suggest holding one's breath is a Standard Action because other wisde you wouldn't be able to Swim (move) and hold your breath. Duh, right? SO...long way to getting to my next point...holding one's breath would be in lieu of Attacking, which makes the Feat a little better (the held and choked opponent can't attack back while holding his breath) but it still makes the choker a sitting duck for all the other baddies around.

I would suggest the virtual damage by as follows along with the modified DC rules I stated above:

The held and choked individual can only hold his breath for CONx1 rounds while being choked. This number of rounds is diminished, however, at a rate equal to the attacker's STR modifier. So a STR16 (+3) person choking someone with a CON18 (can hold his breath for 18 rounds while being choked normally) would actually be losing rounds 3 at a time due to the attackers STR bonus, leaving him able to hold his breath for only 6 rounds instead (18 ÷ 3 = 6). Once these 'rounds' are depleted, the victim must make a FORT save DC10+ Attacker STR bonus + number of rounds choked or immediatly drop to -1 HP and be considered dying. The attacker is them free to Coups De Gras or leave the victim to die in due course, or to stabilize them at 0 HP and unconciousness, the choice is left to the attacker.

That's tough, and a little complicated, but it makes getting choked by really strong guys take all of a few seconds. Someone with STR22(+6) could choke that 18CON guy to death in 3 rounds, forcing him to make a DC10+6+3 test, or DC19. If he passes, then the next round of choking would be at DC20 and so on. Negative STR mods would be simply treated as zero offering no additional effect to the choke.

Really, with how devestating that is, you could leave the Holding Breath rules at CONx2 since really strong guys will deplete the rounds so quickly regardless (STR22 choking CON18 in that case could choke him to death in 6 rounds).