EM Pulse Guns, Blasters, and Shields

[godsgopher]

The more I look at them the less I understand EM Pulse Guns. The idea here is fairly obvious, its an anti-shield gun. However as several of you have noted in other places on this forum, EMP Guns as their rules currently stand are understrength medium blasters. I do not feel these weapons as they are operating under there current rules are preforming the function we all seem to expect from them. Also I have seen some er... well lets call them concerns about the strength of Decados firepower in this forum. Concerns that while its still a bit early in the games Play-testing by the general community to call critical at the very least need examination.

Not wanting to bring up a problem without offering a solution I have a proposal that I think would bring greater definition to these weapon system, while curving the effectiveness of blasters without removing there multi-hit rule. What I propose to do is change the way Multi-hit and Burn-out interact vs. shields. At present a multi-hit weapon when striking a shield counts as "multiple hits verse a Shield" as each of these "hits" has the benefit of the burn-out rule, thus a Multi-hit 3 weapon will take down 3 shields.

Instead what if we try this? Rather than counting the burn-out rule for every hit in a multi-hit weapon inflicts what if we count the burn-out rule as only counting for the Attack dice? The result would be a Medium Blaster which its multi-hit 2 would only burn-out 1 shield instead of two, however when it hit the hull it would still cause 2 hits, each of which would have to be confirmed as normal. By making this switch, EMP Guns would now become the only weapon that can burn-out more than one shield per Attack Dice.

Lets compare

Light Lasers = Not Effected by change (Hawkwood, Li halan, some Decados, some Hazat)
Medium Lasers = Not effected by change (Hawkwood, Li halan, some Decados)
Heavy Lasers = Changes, now would only do 1 point vs. shield (Hawkwood, Li halan, some Decados)
Light blaster = Changed, 1 point max (Hazat, Decados Galliot)
Medium Blaster = changes, 1 point max (Decados, Hazat)
Heavy Blaster = Changed from 3 points to 1 point, better to use another weapon here. (Decados, Hazat)
EMP Gun = 2 shield damage, unchanged, but now only gun that does multiple damage to shields. (Decados, Li-Halan Cruiser)

I would like some serious input on this idea. Honestly I think its too early to be over reacting and demanding a major game change like this. However if the weapons need changing I think this offers a way to keep the idea of blasters and EMP Guns while at the same time reducing the firepower without having to pull dice off various ships broadsides. Currently I feel there is enough dice in the broadsides of the races with blasters to handle the reduced shield penetration yet still leaving all vessels with enough power to go one on one if they have to. Under this system the most effected weapon system would be the heavy blasters, however if we want them to keep there high shield penetration, just give them the Double Burn rule EMP Guns have. In addition to all this, Shields would now become more effective, and it would be more likely that ships would survive longer to make boarding attacks, rather than being sunk before reaching their target.

 

[Stormrider]

I have to say I fully support this, me and Rick had the same idea. Actually it was one of a dozen ideas we batted around but we couldn't agree on one above all others, and trust me, did we debate it! (My car broke down and I wound up spending the night so we got a lot of arguing in lol)

This change was certainly near the top of the list though as it makes EMP Pulse guns worth existing

 

[Rick]

Godsgopher - I would shake you by the hand! :lol:

I imagine this was the original idea behind the Decados weapons combination. It would make the Decados player think about which weapon to fire first, and would go a long way towards balancing the mantis against other frigates. I certainly think it is a 'house rule' worth using.

 

[ender694]

please take into account that doing something like this would make slow weapons even more powerful. when i am playing against Starbreaker's Al Malik fleet, the only thing that gives me even a hope of winning with my Hazat is knowing that i can take down his shields after an initial attack, where he just pretty much ignores shields due to most of Al Malik's weapons being slow.

 

[Stormrider]

I sympathise with you, I really do. I'm also a Hazat player and I support this change, but if we're honest, Hazat gunnery is pretty poor to begin with. You'll be losing at most 3 damage per turn (you really should be focusing fire).

Out of interest, do you find the relatively low speed of the Hazat fleet to be an issue when you're trying to get into grapple range? I'm finding that the Hazat don't hit hard with guns (and yes, I am taking scouts into account but at 750pts they are an unreliable fragile asset that weakens the front line), aren't very fast and the galliots that might try steaming ahead don't survive long enough to grapple (or if they do, they don't survive to the boarding phase). How are you finding them?

 

[starbreaker]

Terrible idea, throws weapon balance right out the window. Blasters and lasers are balanced right now - doubling or tripling the number hits blasters need to drop shields on a target is game-wrecking. Cope with the fact that EM pulse guns are weaker than medium blasters - that's how they were in the old NA, and the RPG makes any blaster vastly better at trashing shields than comparable laser weaponry.

 

[ender694]

i find that since they released the option to have the Cyber troopers, i rarely bother to board, since those things can tie up the marines from one of my crafts (even if i have some marauders) for the entire game. it could be that i tend to roll pretty horrid on boarding actions (just as Starbreaker how my marauders tent to love those 1's and 2's). with hazat's gunning i feel that when i can roll well, it is pretty devastating, all other times i can do maybe 1-4 points of hull dmg on the other ship. nothing amazing tho.

 

[Rick]

Depends on the hull value - at hull 3 or 4, blasters are far superior to lasers, because of the multihit trait. When you get to hull 5 - lasers become the better weapon.

If an opponent takes a fleet of mostly hull 3 or 4 against decados, it will get destroyed very quickly - if 5, then the advantage goes to lasers with accurate and precise.

This idea a) does not "wreck" the game (as you so quaintly put it) and b) brings blasters back into balance at lower hull values.

The only other way to balance this would be to reduce the AD of the smaller decados ships, or increase their points values. Is this what you want?

I happen to think that the original question on this thread is valid - why take EMP guns on ships if blasters are better - why not just take all blasters?

 

[Stormrider]

Terrible idea, throws weapon balance right out the window.
The intention was to balance the unbalanced weapons. I think the only throwing here is toys to the exterior of the pram by yourself.

Blasters and lasers are balanced right now - doubling or tripling the number hits blasters need to drop shields on a target is game-wrecking.
Indeed, making blasters lose a whole whopping 3 hits from the FIRST weapon system firing at those shields in that turn is totally game wrecking and I too would be stomping like a petulant child at the idea if I too lacked the modicum of sense required to see that blasters are overpowered Vs shields.

Cope with the fact that EM pulse guns are weaker than medium blasters
So you think it's reasonable a weapon system DESIGNED to remove shields should be inferior to one without that specialised role? You'll be telling me next screwdrivers should be better at hitting nails

- that's how they were in the old NA
Apples and Oranges mate, this isn't the old NA and I think game balance takes priority

, and the RPG makes any blaster vastly better at trashing shields than comparable laser weaponry.
RPGs also show that 1 fighter can destroy moon-sized space stations, perhaps you'd like that feature also?

1. Stop
2. Think
3. Try again...

 

[Rick]

Going back to Starbreakers idea that blasters were better than EMP guns in the original NA is valid - against a bare hull blasters did do more damage, but EMP guns were better at taking shields down (yes - I also have a copy of the original game as well, lol). Personally - this house rule (and I stress - it is only a house rule) would reflect the original game as well.

Ender - the cyber trooper rules from S&P are only an optional rule - both players really have to agree to use it; if you'd rather not - request that your opponent not use it.

 

[Da Boss]

Not overely experienced in the new ACTA however probably the best thing to do if you want to convince others:

Play a few games with the old rules, play the same games (terrain, fleet composition, scenario) with the new rules and publish the results.

(of course if the revision works for you makes sense to play it that way).

 

[Rick]

Excellent suggestion. Stormrider and I have played a few games with the existing rules, that's why we think the decados are slightly overpowered at the frigate/destroyer level - the Hazat less so. We'll be using this as a house rule between ourselves for a bit and see what occurs!

Nearly forgot - as burn-out is still on the blasters, all subsequent volleys at the same target, in the same turn, would be unaffected if the first one got the shields down - nobody is suggesting removing the burn-out trait from the blasters entirely.

 

[Clanger]

I am finding it amusing that one 1 hand prople are saying how powerful Decados are. Then on the other moaning about a weapon system the Decados has which is not to their ideals. So what the EM Pulse is a poor mans Blaster, the Deccies use it big deal. :wink:

This is a game set in the Fading Suns Universe and hopefully NA CTA is faithful to the setting. It stands to reason that the ships do the same. And to answer Stormrider in his comment to Starbraker, Apples and Oranges Mate, you have to honour the source material sometimes. .

(And yes I do own both editions of the original Noble Armada and am a big fan of the RPG, so do have a good grounding in the setting).

 

[Rick]

Sorry Clanger - I think you may not have fully understood the thread. The whole point of the thread isn't to point out that an EMP gun is a weak blaster, but to show that against shields it has an identical effect as a medium blaster - so why would anyone take an emp gun when they could take a medium blaster? Please - take a minute and read the thread; what we're suggesting keeps the EMP gun exactly as it is, but brings the medium blaster more in line with the original NA rules regarding the comparitive effect against shields.

 

[Stormrider]

And to answer Stormrider in his comment to Starbraker, Apples and Oranges Mate, you have to honour the source material sometimes. .

When the underlying game mechanics change you have to expect some stats to be adjusted for balance, I'm not saying the two are entirely separate but in this case I think it's a fair point to say that EMP pulse guns would have been dismissed in the drawing room as a specialised system which offers no benefits over a more generalised and widespread system. Sometimes the source material has to make common sense

Oh, and where does thinking one fleet is overpowered and thinking 2 weapon systems are comparably imbalanced become amusing? If anything the two thoughts are inline with each other as it reduces the shield bashing potential of the Blaster heavy Decados slightly.

And if you don't agree, don't do it. We'll play our way and you play yours. I'm not going to force balance on you, only offer it as an alternative to those who might be grateful for it.

 

[godsgopher]

I have had more opportunities to play ACTA now, and I have to say my original estimations of the Medium Blasters abilities may have been over-estimated. Yes the total maximum damage of the Mantis Frigate is staggering, however its actually hit-rates and therefore it average damage totals seem to be well in line with everyone else's weapons systems.

So perhaps reducing the blasters effect against shields to 1 isn't the best course of action. None the less I am convinced that EMP Guns need a rule change! as they currently are they represent an under-powered medium Blaster, and in the case of the Li-Halan there crusier and Grand Cruiser mount three of the things in a heavy turret sacrificing much needed firepower for a totally blaw weapon.

 

[starbreaker]

So perhaps reducing the blasters effect against shields to 1 isn't the best course of action.

No kidding. Breaks almost half the ships in game, actually. Hazat players would lynch you if you managed to talk Mongoose into it somehow.

None the less I am convinced that EMP Guns need a rule change! as they currently are they represent an under-powered medium Blaster, and in the case of the Li-Halan there crusier and Grand Cruiser mount three of the things in a heavy turret sacrificing much needed firepower for a totally blaw weapon.

You're still wrong. Specifically, your contention that the Li Halan cruiser is somehow undergunned is wrong. Let's look at raw numbers first, for cruiser average damage output versus hull 4 and 5 targets.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Li Halan, the "undergunned" cruiser:

14 hits against hull 4. Rises to 15.5 if target has more than two shields when fired on, triggering Double Burn to drop extra shields. 12.5 of those hits are Precise, for guaranteed damage and double chance of crit for extra damage and rider effects. Expected hull damage assuming 3 shields on target, 12.5 and four crit effects, increasing total hull loss to roughly 16 points, with a high chance of duplicate crits pushing that to 19 or 22.

10 hits against hull 5. Rises to 11 vs shields as above. 9 hits are Precise. Expected hull damage assuming 4 shields on target, 7 plus 2 crit effects, increasing total hull loss to roughly 9 points.


Then we have Hazat, everyone's favorite bruiser cruiser:

18 hits against hull 4. No special abilities, so (assuming 3 shields) 15 strike the hull, getting an average of 15 points and 2.5 crits. Unless lucky or scoring duplicate crits, wasted bulkhead hits and crit bonus damage cancel out.

12 hits against hull 5. Assuming 4 shields, 8 hull damage, probably 1 crit.


Or how about Hawkwood's pig-slow gunboat of a cruiser:

16.33 hits against hull 4. 7.33 of those are Precise. Assuming shields 3, that's about 15 hull damage and a little over 3 crits, which gives an excellent chance of getting a duplicate crit to push damage to 16 or so.

11.5 hits against hull 5. 5.5 of those are Precise. Assuming shileds 4, that works out to roughly 9 hits, with 2 crits included.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If you don't believe me, do the math yourself, or sit around rolling dice until you do. On average, all the cruiser damage outputs are within a point or two of one another versus their most common targets. One or another may have an edge at hunting hull 3 scouts or fighters, but there are better things to do with a cruiser IME. They're really quite well-balanced as a baseline. If anything, the Li Halan is better than average at zapping - crits mean a lot, and your whole fleet generates them like mad - and that's part of why you're slow and relatively fragile.

Now, you're probably going to argue that EM guns are weak against shieldless targets compared to medium blasters. Whoop de do. If you're punching shots (especially Precise shots) into an unshielded hull, the extra point or three of output the blasters would have gotten you is trivial. If it really worries you that much, fire the cruiser first, setting up every other gun in your exclusively* laser-armed fleet to score Precise hits without hindrance. It's the only EM gun in the fleet, should be easy to find something within 24" to blow the shields off of. I'd even suggest picking two targets and lighting one up with each turret. The blasters are no better on hull than shields, so open two victims for the string of laser crits rather than one.

*Almost exclusively, that is - I suppose meson tubes and point slug guns on fighters count too.

 

[Mroczny]

Hazat players would lynch you if you managed to talk Mongoose into it somehow.

I believe there already is a solution to this problem in the Fading Suns universe. In the RPG version all blasters had the ability to "leak" through energy shields - that is to partially ignore them. Combining this feature with the proposed version of Burn-out should keep average damage of blasters-only ships at the same level and make EM Pulse gun, what it supposed to be.

This is how I see, what rules for "leak through shields" trait could be:
Roll Attack Dice and check how many are hits are not absorbed by shields normally. Than calculate the number of hits (AD * Multihit trait) absorbed by shields. For each absorbed hit roll a dice: on a result of 5 or 6 hit leaks through shields and damages the attacked ship normally.

 

[godsgopher]

I think a simpler solution is in order. Make EMP guns only damage shield, but give them the accurate trait. Its different enough from a Blaster, but retains the essence of what an EMP gun is suppose to do.

Alternatively you could do them similar to heat blasters given them an automatic critical on the shield table.

 

[thelostcity]

I don't think it's a problem which need fixing.

As mentioned earlier, the main categories of weapons seem to be well balanced towards each other and the Decados ships are already fairly powerful.

This conversation seems to be entirely orientated about the numbers and fact the the EM gun isn't the best gun for taking out shields. My response would be "and!" the are many real word examples of the best gun not being used in every situation and lesser guns being mounted on military vehicles.

Quite frankly it may simple be a cheap gun that doesn't take much reactor power and doest require armoured ammunition storage. When the Decados were designing the ship they may simply have designed the vessel and realised that they have X amount of power and Y amount of space left. Not enough for a blaster or a laser but enough for a lesser gun.

So the fact the EM gun isn't awesome against shields doesn't matter. It has its uses as long as you understand it is still good if you use it in the right way.