Defensive Blast: Fix Consensus Discussion

[Raven Blackwell]

If I was prevented from altering the game in major ways I'd say this for DB- get rid of it. It's not REH canon, it doesn't make sense and gameplay would run smoother without it.

 

[Bregales]

If I was prevented from altering the game in major ways I'd say this for DB- get rid of it. It's not REH canon, it doesn't make sense and gameplay would run smoother without it.

I would love to agree.

My sorcerer player has used it mostly in combative ways, only defensively in the last adventure (as in to save his threatened life). Unfortunately, I can't drop an element in a group of 5th to 6th level characters, it's become Akriphon's bread and butter I'm afraid to say.

It's a DnD 3rd ed. spell* that was taken for game balance but modified beyond the DnD spell, thus allowing it to be abused/become overpowered. It has no place in the Conan world IMO and I won't allow it in any future games groups.

*Blast of Flame, a 4th level spell from the Complete Arcane Sourcebook by Richard Baker.

 

[argo]

The only modification I use for DB is that I declared it to be a "mighty spell". This prety much closes the potential defensive blast/opportunistic sacrafice loophole. I also like the idea of having peraonalized "flavors" of DB but have been too lazy to implement it.

Raven's Final Strike rules are prety good but seem to me to be more suited to NPC's than player characters. DB is defenietly an ability designed to give the PC sorcorer some personal protection and a bit of respect from the barbarian with cleave.


Personally I have not had any trouble with DB. My PC scholars have been too terified of getting close to melee combat and/or using all their PP to risk using DB "offensevly". Meanwhile my villan scholars only get to use their DB about half the time, the rest of the time they either are slaugtered from afar or else rushed and cut down while unprepared.

Later.

 

[Sutek]

Sutek: I don't want you to think I have it in for you, but I needed to respond to your last post.

[

Nah...you're right. I went way too far the opposite direction - made it far too complicated a solution.

So here. Truths about the DB as it is now:

A) It says it's a defensive blast, but the sorcerer makes a magic attack roll to do it.

B) There's no cap on the total ammout of damage that can be unleashed and there's no risk to the sorcerer.

I dont see why making the blast just raw force and not fire alters the way it affects or relates to DR or AP. It's like an unarmed push that happens to come from an arcane source and can dish out lots of damge. DR would work as normal and there's no AP. Fire was in there, as far as I can tell, just to be cool.

I think we all agree that the DB should be a defensive move and not a better offensive choice than many spells that are available. Otherwise, you invite sorcerers to prime themselves full of PP and run into crowds wiping everyone out. That's obviously not the intention of the effect.

Considering also that the sorcerer armed with 60PP can drain way more than that with this effect should they use Opportunistic Sacrifice, I think that possibility should be negated. I did suggest that normal energy drains should still be possible, such as a sorcerer preparing a sacrifice and having helpless cronies nearby waiting to be blasted, etc.

Here's a new set of proposals:

• The sorcerer can unleash a blast of force by using all his stored power points. A number of d6 damage dice are used for each power point the sorcerer had stored, limited by his WIS+MAB+CLASS LVL. Note: Even if not all PPs convert into damage dice, all PP are still expended.
  
• It isn't Fire damage but just Force. In every respect it ascts as a Bull Rush (pg 171) with the damge roll acting as the STR roll. The area of effect is a number of 5ft squares equal to the caster's MAB+WIS mod. This starts off directly in front of him and increases size in any direction he wishes as his MAB increases. Example: A sorcerer with MAB +3 and WIS16(+3) could unleash a DB in six (6) 5'squares.
  
  The blast does not have to be ring around the caster; it can be focused outward as well. However, each square not adjacent to the caster diminishes the damage dealt there by 1d6. Example: The same sorcerer with +3 MAB could release the blast in a straight line of three squares directly in front of him, but the first adjacent square would be the only place where full damage was inflicted, the next square out would be at -1d6 and the next square out would be at -2d6.
  
• This is a defensive act and, as such, can only be affected in response to an attack. Instead of using Dodge or Parry, the sorcerer elects to use his MAB to adjust his Defense and the blast is released just prior to the incoming attack. All damage is dealt and the Bull Rush effect is worked out before the enemy blow is delivered. Should the enemy not be either disabled or knocked back enough to prevent the attack, the attack is worked out normally immediately after the blast is taken care of.

 

[Trodax]

The only modification I use for DB is that I declared it to be a "mighty spell". This prety much closes the potential defensive blast/opportunistic sacrafice loophole.

Well that prevents you from using DB multiple times in a row (powering up with Opportunistic Sacrifice in between). It doesn't prevent you from using DB once, and then getting all your PPs back through Opportunistic Sacrifice, though. This second use of DB+Opportunistic isn't as bad as the multiple DB thing, but I still don't think it should be allowed. You could then start every fight with a DB, and then go to town using your powered up PP on regular attack spells.

Personally I have not had any trouble with DB. My PC scholars have been too terified of getting close to melee combat and/or using all their PP to risk using DB "offensevly".

I've had the opposite experience. In my game last week, the PCs were in a fight against a large number of cultists. The Scholar started out by using torment on the cult leader, but then decided to charge in for a DB, wiping out quite a few of the enemies. I don't at all blame the player for munchkinism either; he was just using the tools at his disposal to best effect (it was just so much more worth it blow all those PPs on a big DB, then use them for other effects).

 

[Sutek]

What if it were the addition of a three words: "for that turn".

"All the sorcerer's power points are expended for that turn."

If he uses OpSacrifice, he just doesn't get the PP from it, or rather cannot access them, for a turn.

I'd still like to see some detrimental effect for doing it though. There's several to choose from tha don't require made-up rules too: Stunned, Shaken, Fatigued, etc.

How does it seem to feel as a response to an attack? Instead of Dodge/Parry? Note that opting to go that route would open up the sorcerer to Sneak Attacks if he chooses to DB, so it's pretty darn risky.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

If I was prevented from altering the game in major ways I'd say this for DB- get rid of it. It's not REH canon, it doesn't make sense and gameplay would run smoother without it.

I would love to agree.

My sorcerer player has used it mostly in combative ways, only defensively in the last adventure (as in to save his threatened life). Unfortunately, I can't drop an element in a group of 5th to 6th level characters, it's become Akriphon's bread and butter I'm afraid to say.

Well, you can modify it new campaign I guess. I'm a bit crueler to my players- the poor saps you field test everything I create before I post it- when I make a new rule the universe sudden ripples and changes. I can imagine the PCs looking around every so often and wonder which prototype rule their going to be looking down the barrel of....8)

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Raven's Final Strike rules are prety good but seem to me to be more suited to NPC's than player characters. DB is defenietly an ability designed to give the PC sorcorer some personal protection and a bit of respect from the barbarian with cleave.

'Final Strike" was meant to make a sorcerer think twice about using it as an offensive ability- thus the only reasons NPCs use it more is that the PCs are going to kill them anyway so they have nothing to lose. WIth DB there's no real risk involved except losing their PPs- so with Opportunistic Sacrifice you get the reloadable Palestinan suicide bomber complex going.....

 

[MadDog]

A lot of people are concerned about the OS+DB combo. Why not just eliminate OS ? It seems (to me, at least) far less REH than DB.

Having said that, there ought to be some penalty to using DB, like becoming fatigued.

Just for giggles, I dug a bit. Using Greater Meditation, a Spawn of Dagoth Hill scholar of 7th level could meditate until he reached a whopping 36 PP or so (base 4 PP + 2 for level, +4 for Spawn, +2 WIS bonus, all tripled). Using a DB with 36D6 kills _anything_ in the Conan books.

The afore mentioned scolar is drinking in a bar, minding his own business. In walks Khosatral Khel, who , after a few rounds, spills a beer on the scholar.

Pissed off to no end, the scholar goes off into a corner, and Greater Meditates for a few hours until reaching maximum PP (36).

The scholar walks up to Khosatral Khel, taps him on the shoulder and says....."Hey, You Suck !" Khel has only a moment to furl his brow when the scholar uncorks the 36 PP defensive blast. Assuming KK makes the fort save (not a given, but lets be nice), he takes an average of 0.5*(18*7)-20 (his DR - assuming DR works against DB) of 43 points of damage. This translates into a Massive Damage save of 10+ 0.5*43 or a DC 31.

Khosatral rolls a 17 fort save, for a total of 30 (poor guy...so close). The massive damage turns KK into a dirty, smoking smear on the floor.

The moral of the story: DB, combined with some easy feats, turns a low level scholar into a short range nuclear bomb.

Zowie !

I would suggest instead of making 1 PP into 1 D6, make it a sliding scale at higher PP. For example, the first 8 PP are 1:1. The next 8 PP are 2:1 (2PP gets you 1D6). The next 8 PP are 3:1 (and so on).

Using a DB makes you fatigued until you recover all your normal PP.

Maybe turn some damage into a telekinetic push away from the scholar and a stun effect.

I would hate to gimp a nifty scholar benefit, but it does need some fine-tuning.

Mad Dog

 

[Sutek]

I would suggest instead of making 1 PP into 1 D6, make it a sliding scale at higher PP. For example, the first 8 PP are 1:1. The next 8 PP are 2:1 (2PP gets you 1D6). The next 8 PP are 3:1 (and so on).

Using a DB makes you fatigued until you recover all your normal PP.

Maybe turn some damage into a telekinetic push away from the scholar and a stun effect.

I would hate to gimp a nifty scholar benefit, but it does need some fine-tuning.

Mad Dog

I like the sliding scale, but it seems too arbitrary and I'd rather it scale to the sorcerer's stats or something. Not sure how to do that, but something like limiting the 1PP=1d6 to the sorcerer's WIS or CON or something.

Fatigued is pretty light, but it works okay: -2STR and DEX and cannot charge or run. It just doesn't seem the right penalization for sorcerery gone wrong to me.

There's Staggered (only either a standard or a move action each round) or Stunned (cannot Dodge or Parry and can take no actions, but not helpless) which seems a bit harsh, but possibly worth the risk if damage stays as is.

If the sorcerer is automatically assumed to take only half the blast damge as non-lethal damage, the Staggered/Unconcious mechanic works nicely. The more damage he deals out, the more likely he is to fall unconcious though, and that really makes it a total finishing move.

I also suggested that the blast damage roll be used in place of the STR roll treating the blast just as if doing a Bull Rush. That may be too high. Maybe the Magic Attack roll that has to be made to generate the FORT save DC acts as the STR test for a Bull Rush instead of using the sorcerer's STR. Higher MAB and CHA would result in a bigger push back.

Actually, this just occured to me: Just call it a Bull Rush period, dealing STR damage equal to whatever PP are pumped into it. It deals 1d6+blast STR. For instance, that 36PP blast would equate to a 36(+13) STR. 1d6+13=14-19 damage. Hmm...that's not enough. Maybe 13d6? 13-78 damage? Heck...it's better than 36d6!

That seems to work.

Translate the PP spent into Strength 1:1. Take the Blast STR bonus and roll that many d6 for the damage of the blast. The Magic Attack roll is further adjusted by that STR (MAB+CHA+1d20+13, in the case above) and acts like a Bull Rush at that STR.

Drawback is that the Sorcerer takes half the blast damage as non-lethal damage and can succumb accordingly (Staggered if NLD = current HP; Unconcious if NLD > current HP).

 

[Trodax]

I would suggest instead of making 1 PP into 1 D6, make it a sliding scale at higher PP. For example, the first 8 PP are 1:1. The next 8 PP are 2:1 (2PP gets you 1D6). The next 8 PP are 3:1 (and so on).

I agree that the damage of DB could easily be turned down a notch. 36d6 is just an insane amount of damage, but I actually think a 8d6 DB is a bit much to, in a game were there are no Fireballs or similar area-of-effect spells.

Here are two ideas for lowered DB damage (I like your idea of a sliding scale as well).

1) Damage of DB is d4 instead of d6 (or maybe d3, or even d2..... OK, maybe not; that would just suck to much!)

2) Damage by DB is capped by your Base PP. So, a sorcerer with Base PP 7 who unleashes a DB will only do 7d6 damage, even if he happens to have like 21 PP at the moment. This would prevent sorcerers from boosting up their PP (via sacrifice or meditation) with the purpose of using it for DB.

What do you think?

 

[Sutek]

Well, if you cap it at Base PP, then it's easier to actually do the blast. It still needs a drawback to the sorcerer, like stunned or staggered or something. Damage isn't the issue so much as there being direct reprocussions to the sorcerer from lots of damage dealt.

 

[Trodax]

I agree; there should also be some sort of drawback (other than losing all your PPs). But I think the damage could also be tuned down a little bit in some way.

 

[Sutek]

Well, even if the sorcerer suffered only 1 point of non-lethal damage per PP expended in the blast, that could knock even the most formidible of casters unconcious. A 36PP blast would be 36 points of damage, and that should be below most sorcerer total/current HP at....what was it...7th level?

The amount of PP that can be drawn in is horrendously high, but that was to make sorcerers super scary.

 

[Trodax]

Well, even if the sorcerer suffered only 1 point of non-lethal damage per PP expended in the blast, that could knock even the most formidible of casters unconcious. A 36PP blast would be 36 points of damage, and that should be below most sorcerer total/current HP at....what was it...7th level?

The sorcerer taking non-lethal damage based on the number of PP spent is not a bad idea. I would prefer if there were some randomness to it though; otherwise it's to easy to calculate beforehand ("OK, using a DB right now will put me at exactly 2 hp; I'll chance it!")
Maybe if the sorcerer took like a third, or a fourth, of the damage dealt by the DB (as non-lethal damage)...?

 

[SetWorshipper]

The major problem with non-lethal damage is undead scholars will not be affected by this limitation.

Scholars can be deadly without defensive blast. They manipulate the game outside of combat and can bring countries to their knees. Playing a scholar isn't for combat oriented players, they involve much roleplaying, politicking, and manipulation of the world.

I don't feel bad taking Defensive Blast away from my players. If a scholar PC pays his dues , plays smart, and survives they are the true ones ruling kingdoms at higher levels, even if another PC is the one with Leadership.

(But I've also house ruled out Independant Scholars. You must bargain with and learn from a Demon or a Master at least for the first 7 to 10 levels)

 

[sbarrie]

Translate the PP spent into Strength 1:1. Take the Blast STR bonus and roll that many d6 for the damage of the blast. The Magic Attack roll is further adjusted by that STR (MAB+CHA+1d20+13, in the case above) and acts like a Bull Rush at that STR.

Drawback is that the Sorcerer takes half the blast damage as non-lethal damage and can succumb accordingly (Staggered if NLD = current HP; Unconcious if NLD > current HP).

That's not bad at all. I'll need to work it into my list.

 

[urdinaran]

I like the idea of DB also causing a concussive blast effect. I'm still not sure about what should happen to the sorcerer in the way of damage, whether subdual or lethal. Since they are d6 HD till 10th level, higher level sorcerers may have a hard time weathering the effects of DB.

 

[Sven]

Well, here are my two copper coins:

1. Pushing It. Defensive Blast is automatically "Pushingh It". So, a sorcerer does not just use up all his positive PP, but he reduces himself to a negative number equal to his Base PP and the sorcerer is fatigued then.

I did this to give a sorcerer who has only very few PP left to have this ability still in store. But he will be without power some time if he has no means of sacrifice, meditation, black lotus or whatever.

2. Danger of Corruption. The sorcerer must make a Corruption Save with a DC equal to the power points spent. ("So, you spent 35 PP for your blast, well, make your save!")

3. Mighty Spell. Defensive Blast counts as a mighty spell, and the sorcerer must make a Will saving throw against runaway magic as if this was his second mighty spell in a week.

 

[Oly]

I like what Svenja's come up with. It's simple, keeps within the rules and makes the blast that last desperate defensive measure rather producing the perpetually exploding mage.