Claws...
- Thread starter Deadpool
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Good point, I like the finesse attack idea. But what about say, a monstrous scorpion? Should its stinger be able to finesse? Would it still count as a light weapon even though the creature is quite large?
I'm at work, so i don't have the rulebooks in front of me, but i recall wondering about this subject before. Here's one: Warhorse attacks a character wearing armor with its hoof, should be able to get AP for the attack? considering a horse is immensely strong, I could see some of the damage being absorbed, but not all.
I'm at work, so i don't have the rulebooks in front of me, but i recall wondering about this subject before. Here's one: Warhorse attacks a character wearing armor with its hoof, should be able to get AP for the attack? considering a horse is immensely strong, I could see some of the damage being absorbed, but not all.
urdinaran said:
Two things:
First, to determine whether a weapon is "light" you consider the user. No matter how large a creature is, its own natural weapons are light for it. A size Huge giant's fist may be size medium, but that means it's the same as size tiny would be to a human.
Second, though it's not always a good idea to rely too heavily on the real world when modeling monstrous creature behavior, if you watch film of scorpions in combat with chitinous insects you will see that they use the stinger very much like a finesse weapon, probing for joints and gaps in the armor and only pushing the point home when they find one. They only whack enemies with the tail when it's clear that there's no armor present.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Since RL panthers and cougars will strike for the vulnerable spots on a human, especially when leaping onto a target, in our game I ruled that their claws and bite were finesse weapons- which is what the rules say if I read the above posts right. However I don't think a giant could 'finesse' a human being with it's fists- their fist is larger than any gap there could be in the human's armor. My personal call would be that you can only finesse a creature of your size or greater. Maybe you could stretch the rules for special cases like the above Scorpion. Thus a Medium sized panther can finesse a human but a Large Ogre-like creature could not. Howver creatures bigger than you rarely need to finesse. They are likely much stronger to begin with....
Raven
Raven
Natural attacks can always be finessed and I think that many animals would instinctievly do so anyway.
The trend seems to be that claw or rake, slap or slam and sting attacks do not get AP, which I figgure is right since claws and fists really shouldn't be able to puncture or cut through armour. However gore, bite and hoof attacks do get AP since they can crush and tear through armour (the ammount of force, in lb/sq inch, that some animals can exert with their jaws is quite impressive and a hoof or horn backed up by a half-ton of angry animal can crush quite a bit).
Hope that helps.
The trend seems to be that claw or rake, slap or slam and sting attacks do not get AP, which I figgure is right since claws and fists really shouldn't be able to puncture or cut through armour. However gore, bite and hoof attacks do get AP since they can crush and tear through armour (the ammount of force, in lb/sq inch, that some animals can exert with their jaws is quite impressive and a hoof or horn backed up by a half-ton of angry animal can crush quite a bit).
Hope that helps.
I am not so worried about finesse but AP value. Yes, natural weapons can be finessed but with creatures with vast strength over, it would be foolish and inappropiate for them to finesse. They would batter.
I believe that must predators go for the soft part of any creature (usually the throat) so most natural predators "finesse". I was more interesed in finding out what monsterous humanoids do (like beat-men, etc.) who have natural claws. Would their claws have AP value of 1?
After these postings, I am starting to think that most predatorial creatures' and humanoids' claws would have an AP value of 1.
Thanks people for the submittals.
I believe that must predators go for the soft part of any creature (usually the throat) so most natural predators "finesse". I was more interesed in finding out what monsterous humanoids do (like beat-men, etc.) who have natural claws. Would their claws have AP value of 1?
After these postings, I am starting to think that most predatorial creatures' and humanoids' claws would have an AP value of 1.
Thanks people for the submittals.
Sutek
Mongoose
It's not finesse in the litteral sense. It's Finesse in the game mechanics sense. The game mechanic is such that if the To Hit roll generated exceeds the target's DV by that same target's Armor DR then the armor DR is completely ignored. Most attackers with claw attacks have bonuses that will allow for this result most times that they strike opponents thereby succeeding in the game sense at a Finesse Strike.
Put it another way: Does a Finesse blow from a fist slash through gaps in an opponent's armor? Not at all. It simulates a blow that hits an already exposed area (or one more vulnerable) or even that the blow pinches or concusses the targets armor itself dealing damage. A kick to the groin may strike a target's cod piece in reality, but that's going to send that hard metal upward at the same velocity no matter what. That's a precision blunt strike (what ammounts to a good roll To Hit in d20) and is a decent example of a Finesse attack that has nothing to do with actually getting through an opponents armor, but still ignoring the intended effect of that armor. Finesese isn't necessarily about going for the "the soft part" of one's target, in other words, but instead is more generically about placing a blow that will damage a target regardless of armor protection.
Claws would have no AP whatsoever because AP is a value reflecting a weapon's ability to slice through armor forcibly. Now, the claws of a cave bear may still ahve an AP, but they probably would have an AP much higher than 1 as you suggest. However, my opinion is thtat it's unnecessary that they have any AP value at all if the animal has a very high bonus to hit with it's claws and can, more often than not, roll hits that result in being high enough to ignore armor altogether. To Hit modifier in melee is, after all, based on STR bonus most often, so a creature with +8 bonus, plenty to ignore most armors if the target's DV is too low.
Put it another way: Does a Finesse blow from a fist slash through gaps in an opponent's armor? Not at all. It simulates a blow that hits an already exposed area (or one more vulnerable) or even that the blow pinches or concusses the targets armor itself dealing damage. A kick to the groin may strike a target's cod piece in reality, but that's going to send that hard metal upward at the same velocity no matter what. That's a precision blunt strike (what ammounts to a good roll To Hit in d20) and is a decent example of a Finesse attack that has nothing to do with actually getting through an opponents armor, but still ignoring the intended effect of that armor. Finesese isn't necessarily about going for the "the soft part" of one's target, in other words, but instead is more generically about placing a blow that will damage a target regardless of armor protection.
Claws would have no AP whatsoever because AP is a value reflecting a weapon's ability to slice through armor forcibly. Now, the claws of a cave bear may still ahve an AP, but they probably would have an AP much higher than 1 as you suggest. However, my opinion is thtat it's unnecessary that they have any AP value at all if the animal has a very high bonus to hit with it's claws and can, more often than not, roll hits that result in being high enough to ignore armor altogether. To Hit modifier in melee is, after all, based on STR bonus most often, so a creature with +8 bonus, plenty to ignore most armors if the target's DV is too low.
Sutek - I value your opinion, yet in some regard I would have to disagree. Claws in general would have an Armor Piercing value of 1 unless the creature's claws were not mend to rend. Also, it is a matter of what a creature would do when they would attack and less of what the game mechanics refer to.
As far as finesse - I agree with your assessments except that I think we are over analyzing it. The bottom line is what would the creature do instead of what is going to do the most damage in reference to the rules. Another words, most predatorial creatures would finesse attack as they are instinctively taught. But more herbivore creatures would attack and get the hell out of dodge, unless cornered. But they wouldn't necessarily use finesse just because it would be better in terms of to hit and bypassing armor.
All in all, I appreciate the posts - I can see how we can go around and around on this subject. Great info!!!
As far as finesse - I agree with your assessments except that I think we are over analyzing it. The bottom line is what would the creature do instead of what is going to do the most damage in reference to the rules. Another words, most predatorial creatures would finesse attack as they are instinctively taught. But more herbivore creatures would attack and get the hell out of dodge, unless cornered. But they wouldn't necessarily use finesse just because it would be better in terms of to hit and bypassing armor.
All in all, I appreciate the posts - I can see how we can go around and around on this subject. Great info!!!
Sutek
Mongoose
I work at a science museum. In our paleontology hall we have a fiberglass ankylosaur. Now, one of those nasty guys is about the size of a baby elephant and has a huge, clubbed tail for whackin'.
It's not a claw, but it is a natural weapon. Should it be used as Finesse? Not logically, no, but since it is considered a light weapon for thise dino (an unarmed, natural weapon attack) plus they may also have Focus and some other things to make them have high bonuses when swatting with it. Let's say the total bonus to hit is +6. Now, if I roll average for him, a 10 on the To Hit roll, that results in a 16.
An average character with DV 13 wearing DR3 armor will be hit, but the armor will successfully absorb some of the blow. Not much, but this whole tail-swatting thing isn't really accurate nor physically capable of getting at weak points in that armor - that's not the point anyway. Besides, it's an animal we're talking about, so cleverly aiming the strike isn't even happening here - the dino simply swings and hopes to roll high.
Now say the ankylosaur rolled an 18 for a total of 24. That's well enough above our character's DR3 armor, so the armor is totally ineffectve and he takes full damage because of the rules for Finesse weapons, which unarmed attacks are by the rules.
Now, go back through that example, substitue any animal and any natural unarmed attack they might have. Works in every case.
With an AP, the has a chance to reduce armor effectiveness if that AP is equal to or greater than the DR of the target's armor. AP1 is practically useless. Why have it if the animal could instead have a high chance to hit, use the Finesse Weapon rules and ignore armor altogether? Makes very little sense.
Look up a Jaguar or a Lion and tell me what thier bonus to hit with thier claws actually is.
It's not a claw, but it is a natural weapon. Should it be used as Finesse? Not logically, no, but since it is considered a light weapon for thise dino (an unarmed, natural weapon attack) plus they may also have Focus and some other things to make them have high bonuses when swatting with it. Let's say the total bonus to hit is +6. Now, if I roll average for him, a 10 on the To Hit roll, that results in a 16.
An average character with DV 13 wearing DR3 armor will be hit, but the armor will successfully absorb some of the blow. Not much, but this whole tail-swatting thing isn't really accurate nor physically capable of getting at weak points in that armor - that's not the point anyway. Besides, it's an animal we're talking about, so cleverly aiming the strike isn't even happening here - the dino simply swings and hopes to roll high.
Now say the ankylosaur rolled an 18 for a total of 24. That's well enough above our character's DR3 armor, so the armor is totally ineffectve and he takes full damage because of the rules for Finesse weapons, which unarmed attacks are by the rules.
Now, go back through that example, substitue any animal and any natural unarmed attack they might have. Works in every case.
With an AP, the has a chance to reduce armor effectiveness if that AP is equal to or greater than the DR of the target's armor. AP1 is practically useless. Why have it if the animal could instead have a high chance to hit, use the Finesse Weapon rules and ignore armor altogether? Makes very little sense.
Look up a Jaguar or a Lion and tell me what thier bonus to hit with thier claws actually is.
Sutek
Mongoose
I'm just saying that the answer in both cases is "no". There's no need. If you say "Claws = AP1" then a kitten can scratch through a breast plate as easy as a lion. Or not...bad example, but you see what I mean.
AP 1 is nigh worthless. It can penetrate so few types of armor as to be not worth mentioning.
In reality, claws rake through cloth and flesh. Little else. If enough damage is dealt to a well armored target, there are rules for damaging the armor (20+ pts of damage), but then those are potentially killing blows as well.
I just see no need to assign AP to claws.
AP 1 is nigh worthless. It can penetrate so few types of armor as to be not worth mentioning.
In reality, claws rake through cloth and flesh. Little else. If enough damage is dealt to a well armored target, there are rules for damaging the armor (20+ pts of damage), but then those are potentially killing blows as well.
I just see no need to assign AP to claws.
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
Sutek said:
Well, an AP 1 + str bonus can be significant enough to beat DR and thus avoid half the DR. An AP 0 doesn't allow you to bypass any DR, no matter how strong you are. So whether or not claws have an AP 1 or 0 is monumentally important if you are dealing with a strong but not dexterous critter.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
The house rules I came up with for natural attacks are as follows:
Unarmed Attack [from any creature without a natural attack]: AP 0
may finesse/cannot penetrate armor
Claws: AP 1 + Str modifer
may finesse/can cut through armor
Bite: AP 2 + Str modifer
may not finesse/can cut through armor
[Exception: serpents and those creature with similiar long necks may finesse but AP drops to 1 + Str modifer]
I ruled that the claws of a big/strong enough creature may rend through the lighter versions of armor. Since the teeth of a predator are designed to crush bone and other harder substances. I made them more capable of biting through armor, but I can't see anything but a serpent or similiar creature using finesse with it due to the inflexibilty of most creature's necks. Also, this a 'bite' as described above has to be a natural weapon. The 'bite' of a a creature without a bite natural attack would fall under the 'unarmed attack' range.
Note that the arguement 'that a kitten could cut through armor' doesn't work. The negative Strength modifier of a kitten or even a full grown cat would lower the AP of its claws and bite to 0 and thus make it impossble to penetrate armor. Due to the high Dex of cats, they'd be using finesse attacks anyway.
In another vein, I have been considering giving felines Sneak Attack due to their natural talent for ambush and striking vulnerable areas such as the neck and forehead. If sharks con possess it, I don't see why cats can't either.
Raven, who actually had a first level mage in her game die from the attack of a alley cat.......
Unarmed Attack [from any creature without a natural attack]: AP 0
may finesse/cannot penetrate armor
Claws: AP 1 + Str modifer
may finesse/can cut through armor
Bite: AP 2 + Str modifer
may not finesse/can cut through armor
[Exception: serpents and those creature with similiar long necks may finesse but AP drops to 1 + Str modifer]
I ruled that the claws of a big/strong enough creature may rend through the lighter versions of armor. Since the teeth of a predator are designed to crush bone and other harder substances. I made them more capable of biting through armor, but I can't see anything but a serpent or similiar creature using finesse with it due to the inflexibilty of most creature's necks. Also, this a 'bite' as described above has to be a natural weapon. The 'bite' of a a creature without a bite natural attack would fall under the 'unarmed attack' range.
Note that the arguement 'that a kitten could cut through armor' doesn't work. The negative Strength modifier of a kitten or even a full grown cat would lower the AP of its claws and bite to 0 and thus make it impossble to penetrate armor. Due to the high Dex of cats, they'd be using finesse attacks anyway.
In another vein, I have been considering giving felines Sneak Attack due to their natural talent for ambush and striking vulnerable areas such as the neck and forehead. If sharks con possess it, I don't see why cats can't either.
Raven, who actually had a first level mage in her game die from the attack of a alley cat.......
Sutek
Mongoose
Hyborian Apeman said:
AP0 doesn't allow a strike to penetrate armor, but because claws and other natural weaponry are consideered light, they can bypass armor entirely. Remember that AP greater than or equal to DR simply halves DR; it doesn't negate or ignore it. That's what I'm driving at. It shouldnt'. Even a lion has a reasonable chance of de-clawing itself trying to rake through a breast plate or mail.
Also, stronger creatures will have thier STR bonus adjusting thier chance to hit. Ever stronger increases the change of rolling high when trying to hit and that invites a higher chance of a successful Finesse.
What would work is to have the size differential add (or subtract) from an AP0 base. Therefor if the animal with claws is a single size category larger than it's target (like a bear or lion) then some value that can add to STR mod for a total AP value. Otherwise, the animal has to hit well and get lucky or roll very high damage. Perhaps a +2 per size category?
Frankly I just don't see the need. Claws just don't slice through steel. They jsut don't. If I'm one of those goof balls wearing a "bear fighting suit" I do that because I know the bear's claws cannot penetrate the armor. However, if I'm unlucky and that grizzly lands a good blow, the claws can dig under and wound me. That's why I say stick to the rules for Finesse strikes and for get AP1 or more.
Sutek
Mongoose
Raven Blackwell said:
Another reason this idea of naturla attack AP doesn't really work in my opinion. A snake biting through my hardened boot isn't likely...that's why I wear the boot. With even a 1+STRmod, a 3 rattler can get a bite through and poison me to death.
However, if it's AP0, the rattler, regardless of size, has to roll well. How do they manage that? By hiding and catching me unaware (flat footed = no DEX) making it easier for them to roll high enough for a Finesse strike that ignores my boot altogether.
Just makes better sense to me that way.
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