Sutek - I completely disagree with your concepts and gaming style. Raven - I like your system and will become my house rules. In general, there is no STEEL armor in Conan. It's mostly just a variety of leather some minor metal protection in specific spots. I think claws deserve a AP 1 + Str, especially supernatural creatures which aren't in any museum.
Claws...
- Thread starter Deadpool
- Start date
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Deadpool said:
Much as I like you championing my style, you don't have to so harsh here- just saying 'I don't agree' would be sufficeint I think.
I'll disagree with you on that on one point- Full Plate is mostly steel. So much so that each individual metal piece has to shaped to a specific person. The Strength needed to pierce Full plate though would be I think 25 or higher with natural claws though- giving full protection against anything short of a Fire Drake.
Raven
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Sutek said:
Umm, how? A Tiny/Small rattler is going to have a Str far below 9- and thus a negative Strength modifer. Thus AP= 1 + (-1 or less Strength modifier)- you effectively have zero AP and thus no Armor Pentration is possible. The rattler must finesse around that darn boot.....8)
'A rattler, regardless of size'- are we including a Medium or larger rattler here? Such a thing would start to border on the fantastic- a rattler might get to the six feet length of a human, but never the body mass/size of one in our world. Thus Strength of a 'natural' specimen remains below 10- the minimum that would allow AP 1. Also not to mention that the lightest armor around is Quilted w/ a AP of 3- so you'd need a rattler with a Strength of 14 [natural AP of 1 + 2 Str modifier] at least to get through it. A rattler of Strength 14 is not a child of common nature- such a speciemen would be an exception or magically enhanced. After all how many rattlers can consider 100 lbs a 'Light' load? 8)
Raven, who has a degree in Biology and is a shaman, if we want to start comparing credentials.....
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
I think Raven is answering pretty well, but I'll throw in my 2 cents as well.
Here is the key difference between finessing and trying to pierce armor: in finessing you use dex, in piercing armor you use str. When you finesse, you do not get your str modifier to attacks or damage, which is why high dex creatures need to finesse, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to do any damage against armored foes.
High strength creatures would be better off using their brute strength to beat and claw their opponents down.
To the point of steel armor. In all reality, only knights should have full plate. All other armors are various combinations of leathers with some metal pieces.
A rattler isn't going to be able to bite through leather armor (as was nicely pointed out by Raven), but a son of set certainly could.
Bear suits are not the same thing as leather armor. A bear would not finesse in his attacks, he would use his strength and claws to tear someone apart, and he wouldn't be doing it by trying to strike at the weak parts of the armor.
Sutek said:
Here is the key difference between finessing and trying to pierce armor: in finessing you use dex, in piercing armor you use str. When you finesse, you do not get your str modifier to attacks or damage, which is why high dex creatures need to finesse, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to do any damage against armored foes.
High strength creatures would be better off using their brute strength to beat and claw their opponents down.
To the point of steel armor. In all reality, only knights should have full plate. All other armors are various combinations of leathers with some metal pieces.
A rattler isn't going to be able to bite through leather armor (as was nicely pointed out by Raven), but a son of set certainly could.
Bear suits are not the same thing as leather armor. A bear would not finesse in his attacks, he would use his strength and claws to tear someone apart, and he wouldn't be doing it by trying to strike at the weak parts of the armor.
Actually, you do still add Str to damage when finessing (although it is Dex to the attack roll).Hyborian Apeman said:
Other than that, I agree completely with what you're saying; with AP0 for claws, creatures with high Str and low Dex will have a hard time against foes in armour.
For something with for example Str 30 and Dex 10, the difference between AP0 and AP1 will be huge against an opponent in a lot of armour.
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
Trodax said:
Do they? This has been something I have been struggling with. In 3.0/3.5 they don't, but I have noticed in the stat blocks of various Conan creatures that finesse that the strength was added to damage, but there have been a plethora of errors in the stat blocks, so I wasn't convinced. I think the rules are somewhat silent on the damage piece. Am I missing it somewhere?
Yes, I'm pretty sure that they do. And I think this is so in D&D as well:Hyborian Apeman said:
It explicitly states that it is the attack roll that uses Dex instead of Str, and says nothing about damage. My interpretation is therefore that damage gets Str added as usual.PHB3.5 said:
As to what Conan has to say:
And a little further down:Conan AE said:
Again, same thing; damage is never mentioned. I interpret this to mean that damage is handled as usual, ie. that Str is added, although I admit that I haven't found it written anywhere that "you get to add your Strength modifier to damage, even when finessing".Conan AE said:
(As an aside, also note that you if you fail to successfully finesse an attack (beat Defense+DR on you roll), you may still penetrate armour if your base AP is high enough. What I mean is that your AP isn't treated as 0, it's just that you don't get to add Str to it when finessing. Maybe a not all that important rule, but one that is very easy to overlook.)
Sutek
Mongoose
Yeah. You use DEX to make your To Hit roll. I screwed that up. I was thinking it was still STR. So that sort of makes Claw Finesse undesireable....sort of.
A Saber-tooth cat has STR25, DEX13 and Claws +12. With a brute force attack, that's +19 to hit and with a Finesse attack that's +13. The brute force attack has almost a guarantee to hit unless the target is particularly adept at getting out of the way, but Finessing is a distinct possibility. Saber-tooths have Rake though, so there's ways to increase damage even without needeing AP.
A 6' Rattler (Medium Viper) has a STR8, DEX17 and Bite +5. That's a total of +4 with a brute force attack to hit and +8 with a Finesses attack. Damage is only 1d6-1 so most even simple leather can have a chance to block damage outright (DR4), therefore a Finesse attack is the way to go, so no AP is necessary.
A Lesser Son of Set is a massive beastie indeed, and gets a minimumBite attack of +21 with a brute force attack. Even with it's paltry (ahem) DEX17 if attempting to make a Finesse attack instead, it would have a +14 (size not factored in either case). That's still reasonable, but not against hig level foes. So, let's say this Lesser Son uses it's STR, not making a Finesse attack, instead relying soley on it's 1d10+18 Bite damage. Armor ranges from DR4 to DR10 and the damage that the Lesser Son can inflict is from 19 to 28. Not too great. That would only net 15-24 damage on the low end of the armor spectrum and 9-18 on the upper end.
But look again at the Lesser Son. It's got a +23 base attack to grapple, a +8 due to it's STR25 to maintain that Grapple, and deals 19-26 Constriction damage per round with an AP8. This attack is assigined AP because it's strong enoughto crumple just about any armor out in existance. Not only that, but with Improved Grapple, the Bite attack described above allows an immediate Grapple attempt provoking no AOO. That's 38-54 points of damage, before any armor DR that isn't halved by the Grapple AP8, and that's going to fall into the 20+ points of damage in most cases anyway, killing foes outright.
You can't just look at a fang or claw in and of itself. A Lesser Son has massive damage causing potential and doesn't require AP on it's bit because (A) it's strong enough for it not to matter and (B) it gets bonus additional attack opportunities that allow it to do more damage plus having AP assigned directly to the attack mode where such a score makes a huge difference. It's main attack, what it really wants to do more than anything, is crush you and eat you.
Grey Apes have Improved Grab also, +14 to hit, +25 to grapple, capable of dealing a 4d18+10 crush.
Ghouls are cool. They also have improved grab and +15/+18 (that's first hit, then the grapple remember). Once they have you, they keep biting every round (1d8+1, AP4) and each consecutive round the AP modifies +1. They'll eventually chew through plate. It's the ability to grab ahold and gnaw that makes them dangerous, not having an AP rating for thier claws. It's the Bite that counts.
I'm also citing an encounter of a single creature in each of these instances, but a cave of multiple Saber-tooth cats, a well full of Pit Vipers or a house bulging with Ghouls makes it even easier for blows to hit, resulting in even more change of enormous ammounts of damage.
Without AP being assigned to claws.
:wink:
A Saber-tooth cat has STR25, DEX13 and Claws +12. With a brute force attack, that's +19 to hit and with a Finesse attack that's +13. The brute force attack has almost a guarantee to hit unless the target is particularly adept at getting out of the way, but Finessing is a distinct possibility. Saber-tooths have Rake though, so there's ways to increase damage even without needeing AP.
A 6' Rattler (Medium Viper) has a STR8, DEX17 and Bite +5. That's a total of +4 with a brute force attack to hit and +8 with a Finesses attack. Damage is only 1d6-1 so most even simple leather can have a chance to block damage outright (DR4), therefore a Finesse attack is the way to go, so no AP is necessary.
A Lesser Son of Set is a massive beastie indeed, and gets a minimumBite attack of +21 with a brute force attack. Even with it's paltry (ahem) DEX17 if attempting to make a Finesse attack instead, it would have a +14 (size not factored in either case). That's still reasonable, but not against hig level foes. So, let's say this Lesser Son uses it's STR, not making a Finesse attack, instead relying soley on it's 1d10+18 Bite damage. Armor ranges from DR4 to DR10 and the damage that the Lesser Son can inflict is from 19 to 28. Not too great. That would only net 15-24 damage on the low end of the armor spectrum and 9-18 on the upper end.
But look again at the Lesser Son. It's got a +23 base attack to grapple, a +8 due to it's STR25 to maintain that Grapple, and deals 19-26 Constriction damage per round with an AP8. This attack is assigined AP because it's strong enoughto crumple just about any armor out in existance. Not only that, but with Improved Grapple, the Bite attack described above allows an immediate Grapple attempt provoking no AOO. That's 38-54 points of damage, before any armor DR that isn't halved by the Grapple AP8, and that's going to fall into the 20+ points of damage in most cases anyway, killing foes outright.
You can't just look at a fang or claw in and of itself. A Lesser Son has massive damage causing potential and doesn't require AP on it's bit because (A) it's strong enough for it not to matter and (B) it gets bonus additional attack opportunities that allow it to do more damage plus having AP assigned directly to the attack mode where such a score makes a huge difference. It's main attack, what it really wants to do more than anything, is crush you and eat you.
Grey Apes have Improved Grab also, +14 to hit, +25 to grapple, capable of dealing a 4d18+10 crush.
Ghouls are cool. They also have improved grab and +15/+18 (that's first hit, then the grapple remember). Once they have you, they keep biting every round (1d8+1, AP4) and each consecutive round the AP modifies +1. They'll eventually chew through plate. It's the ability to grab ahold and gnaw that makes them dangerous, not having an AP rating for thier claws. It's the Bite that counts.
I'm also citing an encounter of a single creature in each of these instances, but a cave of multiple Saber-tooth cats, a well full of Pit Vipers or a house bulging with Ghouls makes it even easier for blows to hit, resulting in even more change of enormous ammounts of damage.
Without AP being assigned to claws.
:wink:
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
Trodax said:
Yeah, I knew how those rules read, and the omission on whether it was applied to damage always bugged me. I always interpreted it as str couldn’t be added to damage either. To me it makes sense that if you are skillfully aiming your weapon, you can't have the same amount of force behind it (kind of the opposite of power attack), but the rules don't explicitly affirm my position. We always played in D&D that it didn't add to damage, but then again, anyone who took the weapon finesse feat did so because they were weak and it was a moot point.
In Conan it is a little different because anyone can finesse (with the right weapon) and there are situational advantages of finessing and not finessing, no matter what your str and dex are.
Is that the general consensus, str is added to damage even in a finesse?
Sutek,
I had a PC fight a saber tooth tiger in a situation where the AP of the claws made a monumental difference (I of course said the claws had an AP 1). When I get home I will look up the appropriate stats and post my reply to your lengthy but well thought out post.
Sutek
Mongoose
Hyborian Apeman said:Sutek,
I had a PC fight a saber tooth tiger in a situation where the AP of the claws made a monumental difference (I of course said the claws had an AP 1). When I get home I will look up the appropriate stats and post my reply to your lengthy but well thought out post.
Thanks, but it wasn't really well thought out so much as just looking at all the subsequent effects. (lol) It's Improved Grab that makes a lot of these critters do loads of damage; 28-88 points of damage in terms of a Saber-tooth getting at least 1 claw hit in order to grab, the hig-end being all four claws hitting - not adding bite damage).
Hyborian Apeman said:
Its not a consensus, its the RAW. A finesse attack changes the modifier you apply to hit, it says nothing about damage. Changing the modifier to damage is reading more into the rule than is actually printed.
And yes, it works that way in d20 as well.
Hope that helps.
Sutek
Mongoose
Right. The only "never add STR" par about Finese attacks is to the AP. If you give claws AP1 then that Saber-tooth actually ends up with claws of AP9. That easily slices through all armor short of plate.
For a Finesse you use DEX instead of STR on the To Hit roll. The full DR of the armor be negated if the roll To Hit beats the target's DV my that DR value or more. DV of 18 wearing armor of DR6 - if I roll 24+ on my attack roll, I ignore the DR6 altogether, otherwise it reduces damage in full.
For a Finesse you use DEX instead of STR on the To Hit roll. The full DR of the armor be negated if the roll To Hit beats the target's DV my that DR value or more. DV of 18 wearing armor of DR6 - if I roll 24+ on my attack roll, I ignore the DR6 altogether, otherwise it reduces damage in full.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
In defense of AP 1 claws, let me point a few things out-
1) The steel of the Hyborian Age is much lower quality than the what we think of as steel. The cultures of Hyboria had a sort of Dark/Bronze Age hybrid level of technology. Barring Sorcery or certain Kothic volcanos, there is no way to get fire of that age hot enough to eliminate the level of impurities that a modern facility could. For the most part, that metal of that Age would fail the average quality assurance testing of our Age. 8) In additon, the skill level of that age is far less than the smiths who work to produce armor for entertainment purpsoes now. So thus the armor characters are using in the game would afford less protection that a modern replica.
In addition, as stated before, the only type of armor that is mostly steel is Full Plate, which isn't going to available to most people outside of the landed gentry who have large retinues of servants and bodyguards to keep said animals away. Others type mix leather and chain and steel plate postioned at vital areas. A lot of people use scavenged, jury rigged or second hand bits of armor- armor after all isn't cheap and most people couldn't afford it even if it was available. Not to mention the amount of maitainence said armor requires- one good rain and chainmail rusts....
Being said, the average suit of armor isn't going to afford as much protection as one would like. Armor isn't an impentrible forcefield- a bear couldn't claw through a breastplate, but it's claws could slide down it, hook onto a chainmail/leather part of it and start to tear at the seams and rifts. It isn't making a finesse atack here- it didn't aim for the weak points, but since armor doesn't present the same level of coverage to all areas, there is only so much protection it can give.
2) When AP exceeds a target's DR, the DR doesn't suddenly vanish- it is merely halved. As author and Celtic scholar Katherine Kerr once wrote despite all the stories and ballads about foes being dispatched in a single blow, usually you just beat the guy to death inside his armor. If steel chain and plate are driven into flesh it hurts. A lot. That's why the leather and padded underportions of the armor are there- to reduce the bruising. Realistic armor of any sort isn't designed to prevent injury, merely reduce it to manageable levels. Outside of high magic fantasy or high sci-fi setting no type of armor could prevant 100% of the damage a peson receives. Stell, leather and chain armor merely are designed to stop low powered attacks and spread the impact of a greater tramua across a wider area and absorb part of it. Bulletproof vests aren't for the most part- they won't stop a direct hit at short range, where most firefights occur, just bullets that have already lost a good amount of their kinetic force already or don't hit directly. They are also useless for stabbing and a lot of bruise damage.
3) Predators are more dangerous than you think they are. We of the Western European based countries have the benefit of our ancestors wiping clean the indigenous predators of our habitats. Those few that remain are more of a danger to our domestic pets than ourselves. In areas of the second and third world, this is not true- great cats, hyneas and other predators take human prey in Asia and Africa, crocodiles stalk washer women in the Nile and wolves have been reported devouring humans in Afganistan. In South America, a full sized panther is capable of shearing off a human head in a single swipe. In America, cougars have started to even the score for their near extinxtion. They had been following the reemrging deer population and some started studying human populations and learning their patterns- stalking jogging paths and bike trails. A small number of people have been killed and many more attacked. One rather well documented near fatal attack showed a cougar using a few familiar tactics- after failing to establish a Grapple in the Sneak Attack from behind, the cougar Bull's Rushed the man after the man failed his Demoralize Opponent attempt. [the man was knocked back 30 ft from the impact] The cougar Grappled him the man by latching its jaws onto the man's forehead and trying to bite through his skull. The man survived only because he got a critical with a Swiss Army knife- he stabbed it in the eye. In true Hyborian fashion, he swore vengeance- he has offered a cash reward to to anyone who finds the one eyed cougar- he intends to shoot it. 8)
4) Realism aside, think of game balance. If a animal can't hurt the party it is no threat. Since Conan has less prevelant supernatural threats than D&D natural encounters are going to be far more common. No wandering terrasques or bulletes here. 8) So in order to maintain a level of tension, the has to be a credible threat to the party. Predators can and will stalk the party and would prefer to attack lone sentries and scouts- but with a little work even a lone Warior or Barbarian of low-to-mid level should be worried about encoutering 'just an animal'. If the animals have access to AP 1 claws and AP 2 bites, use of simple abilities Feats such as Power Attack, Sneak Attack, Improved Feint and Demoralize Opponent, their threat rating increases significantly. By using these options, on two occasions a panther represented a threat to seperate 4th level barbarians. In fact one occasion, a barbarian let a panther steal his kill than fight it. If you argue that 'dumb animals' should have access to such abilites, think about this. Humans are amatuers at killing- we aren't born to it and we have to train to become effective fighters and killers. Predators are born with one purpose the the world- to kill. Every instinct they possess is designed to elimnate any threat to its existence and stalk prey. They are certainly capable of learning through experience and to improvise simple tactics. In the Hyborian Age, nature is far more primal as well- perhaps the predators of that Age retain a intellect and vitality lost to the animals of our current Age.
Raven, musing.
1) The steel of the Hyborian Age is much lower quality than the what we think of as steel. The cultures of Hyboria had a sort of Dark/Bronze Age hybrid level of technology. Barring Sorcery or certain Kothic volcanos, there is no way to get fire of that age hot enough to eliminate the level of impurities that a modern facility could. For the most part, that metal of that Age would fail the average quality assurance testing of our Age. 8) In additon, the skill level of that age is far less than the smiths who work to produce armor for entertainment purpsoes now. So thus the armor characters are using in the game would afford less protection that a modern replica.
In addition, as stated before, the only type of armor that is mostly steel is Full Plate, which isn't going to available to most people outside of the landed gentry who have large retinues of servants and bodyguards to keep said animals away. Others type mix leather and chain and steel plate postioned at vital areas. A lot of people use scavenged, jury rigged or second hand bits of armor- armor after all isn't cheap and most people couldn't afford it even if it was available. Not to mention the amount of maitainence said armor requires- one good rain and chainmail rusts....
Being said, the average suit of armor isn't going to afford as much protection as one would like. Armor isn't an impentrible forcefield- a bear couldn't claw through a breastplate, but it's claws could slide down it, hook onto a chainmail/leather part of it and start to tear at the seams and rifts. It isn't making a finesse atack here- it didn't aim for the weak points, but since armor doesn't present the same level of coverage to all areas, there is only so much protection it can give.
2) When AP exceeds a target's DR, the DR doesn't suddenly vanish- it is merely halved. As author and Celtic scholar Katherine Kerr once wrote despite all the stories and ballads about foes being dispatched in a single blow, usually you just beat the guy to death inside his armor. If steel chain and plate are driven into flesh it hurts. A lot. That's why the leather and padded underportions of the armor are there- to reduce the bruising. Realistic armor of any sort isn't designed to prevent injury, merely reduce it to manageable levels. Outside of high magic fantasy or high sci-fi setting no type of armor could prevant 100% of the damage a peson receives. Stell, leather and chain armor merely are designed to stop low powered attacks and spread the impact of a greater tramua across a wider area and absorb part of it. Bulletproof vests aren't for the most part- they won't stop a direct hit at short range, where most firefights occur, just bullets that have already lost a good amount of their kinetic force already or don't hit directly. They are also useless for stabbing and a lot of bruise damage.
3) Predators are more dangerous than you think they are. We of the Western European based countries have the benefit of our ancestors wiping clean the indigenous predators of our habitats. Those few that remain are more of a danger to our domestic pets than ourselves. In areas of the second and third world, this is not true- great cats, hyneas and other predators take human prey in Asia and Africa, crocodiles stalk washer women in the Nile and wolves have been reported devouring humans in Afganistan. In South America, a full sized panther is capable of shearing off a human head in a single swipe. In America, cougars have started to even the score for their near extinxtion. They had been following the reemrging deer population and some started studying human populations and learning their patterns- stalking jogging paths and bike trails. A small number of people have been killed and many more attacked. One rather well documented near fatal attack showed a cougar using a few familiar tactics- after failing to establish a Grapple in the Sneak Attack from behind, the cougar Bull's Rushed the man after the man failed his Demoralize Opponent attempt. [the man was knocked back 30 ft from the impact] The cougar Grappled him the man by latching its jaws onto the man's forehead and trying to bite through his skull. The man survived only because he got a critical with a Swiss Army knife- he stabbed it in the eye. In true Hyborian fashion, he swore vengeance- he has offered a cash reward to to anyone who finds the one eyed cougar- he intends to shoot it. 8)
4) Realism aside, think of game balance. If a animal can't hurt the party it is no threat. Since Conan has less prevelant supernatural threats than D&D natural encounters are going to be far more common. No wandering terrasques or bulletes here. 8) So in order to maintain a level of tension, the has to be a credible threat to the party. Predators can and will stalk the party and would prefer to attack lone sentries and scouts- but with a little work even a lone Warior or Barbarian of low-to-mid level should be worried about encoutering 'just an animal'. If the animals have access to AP 1 claws and AP 2 bites, use of simple abilities Feats such as Power Attack, Sneak Attack, Improved Feint and Demoralize Opponent, their threat rating increases significantly. By using these options, on two occasions a panther represented a threat to seperate 4th level barbarians. In fact one occasion, a barbarian let a panther steal his kill than fight it. If you argue that 'dumb animals' should have access to such abilites, think about this. Humans are amatuers at killing- we aren't born to it and we have to train to become effective fighters and killers. Predators are born with one purpose the the world- to kill. Every instinct they possess is designed to elimnate any threat to its existence and stalk prey. They are certainly capable of learning through experience and to improvise simple tactics. In the Hyborian Age, nature is far more primal as well- perhaps the predators of that Age retain a intellect and vitality lost to the animals of our current Age.
Raven, musing.
All of this discussion makes updated creature Stat Blocks for a suggested Bestiary all the more relevant/ important.
I feel that the resolution of all the points of view would be good to include in this proposed tome.
Like the point made with Ghouls - there's obviously a range of supernatural critters that can break into armour like a can opener. Not that there's really that much of full plate coverage in Conan (The Knights of Aquilonia/ Poitain being the exception perhaps).
I feel that the resolution of all the points of view would be good to include in this proposed tome.
Like the point made with Ghouls - there's obviously a range of supernatural critters that can break into armour like a can opener. Not that there's really that much of full plate coverage in Conan (The Knights of Aquilonia/ Poitain being the exception perhaps).
Sutek
Mongoose
The real thing that's a problem in the creature stat blocks is disparity between, say ability and saves. Some creatures have average or low ability scores, but they have huge saves. Obviously there was some rationalle for it because of the type of creature it is, but it just doesn't add up directly. See the Ghoul and Earth Elemental as two examples right off the top of my head.
Raven:
All you points are very good, but they actually speak to zero AP more than AP1 for claws and other natural attacks. In essesnce ther animals that can Finesse thier attacks to get the best result do so (the Vipers) and thoer cah can choose do that as well (Lesser Son).
The fact is that if a Saber-tooth had AP1 claws, then the actual AP total would end up being AP9 (because of STR bonus + base AP) and the best AP a man made, low quality steel weapon in the list is AP8 - the Pollaxe. Now, I know large wild cats are scary, but a broadsword (AP3) is not 3 times more dull than the claws of a Saber-tooth. No way that makes sense.
If the claws opperate as AP0, the Saber-tooth can't bypass armor due to it's high strength, but it doesn't have to because of all the other attacks and subsequent damage it can inflict. All it needs to do is hit with one claw and he inflicts a potential 24-56 just witht he claws (AP0), not to mention it can pounce and get the bite too (5-23, AP12 - that's right, AP12!!!) plus Puncture.
At that point, the armor is probably destroyed anyway. 20+ points of damage reduced armor AP by 1d4. Not only that, but it's going to be Massive Damage and stands a chance of killing the character outright.
:shock:
Raven:
All you points are very good, but they actually speak to zero AP more than AP1 for claws and other natural attacks. In essesnce ther animals that can Finesse thier attacks to get the best result do so (the Vipers) and thoer cah can choose do that as well (Lesser Son).
The fact is that if a Saber-tooth had AP1 claws, then the actual AP total would end up being AP9 (because of STR bonus + base AP) and the best AP a man made, low quality steel weapon in the list is AP8 - the Pollaxe. Now, I know large wild cats are scary, but a broadsword (AP3) is not 3 times more dull than the claws of a Saber-tooth. No way that makes sense.
If the claws opperate as AP0, the Saber-tooth can't bypass armor due to it's high strength, but it doesn't have to because of all the other attacks and subsequent damage it can inflict. All it needs to do is hit with one claw and he inflicts a potential 24-56 just witht he claws (AP0), not to mention it can pounce and get the bite too (5-23, AP12 - that's right, AP12!!!) plus Puncture.
At that point, the armor is probably destroyed anyway. 20+ points of damage reduced armor AP by 1d4. Not only that, but it's going to be Massive Damage and stands a chance of killing the character outright.
:shock:
Raven,
It is irrelevant how much or how little steel is in the armor worn, if you want to reflect the fact that a particular suit of armor affords more/less protection then you should adjust the DR provided by the armor. Not up the AP of the weapon attacking it! You've got your mechanics backwards. DR reflects how tough armor is and AP reflects how well a particular weapon tears through armor. I'm sorry but claws are simply not the sort of thing that will tear through hardened materials. If you want your creature to "slide his claws around the breastplate and tear into the seams" then the mechanic for that is a finess attack not Armor Penetrating.
Perhaps if you wanted to model a "dire" animal, something with espically nasty features, then claws with AP would be appropriate. However for "real world" animals I think an AP value for claws is inappropriate.
As for how you make animals threatining without AP. Thats simple, you play to the strengths of animals instead of trying to fight them like characters. A large number of natural attacks all at a high attack bonus and with good damage means a lot of pain on a full-round attack. Special abilities like Pounce or Rend can hurt a player badly in one unlucky round. High grapple mods and the ability to use natural weapons in a grapple (while the player can't use his favorite greatsword in turn) lets an animal maul a player to death over a couple of rounds. A pack/pride/herd of animals can overwhelm the party. If you need more than that then advance the animal a few HD and maybe a size category and play it as a crazed rogue animal or some sort of lord of the jungle. And lastly don't forget that "normal" animals probably will stop being a significant threat once your players hit level 6-8. Thats the way things went for Conan too. He eventually graduated to worrying about "monsterous" animals like giant snakes and white apes and so should your players.
Later.
It is irrelevant how much or how little steel is in the armor worn, if you want to reflect the fact that a particular suit of armor affords more/less protection then you should adjust the DR provided by the armor. Not up the AP of the weapon attacking it! You've got your mechanics backwards. DR reflects how tough armor is and AP reflects how well a particular weapon tears through armor. I'm sorry but claws are simply not the sort of thing that will tear through hardened materials. If you want your creature to "slide his claws around the breastplate and tear into the seams" then the mechanic for that is a finess attack not Armor Penetrating.
Perhaps if you wanted to model a "dire" animal, something with espically nasty features, then claws with AP would be appropriate. However for "real world" animals I think an AP value for claws is inappropriate.
As for how you make animals threatining without AP. Thats simple, you play to the strengths of animals instead of trying to fight them like characters. A large number of natural attacks all at a high attack bonus and with good damage means a lot of pain on a full-round attack. Special abilities like Pounce or Rend can hurt a player badly in one unlucky round. High grapple mods and the ability to use natural weapons in a grapple (while the player can't use his favorite greatsword in turn) lets an animal maul a player to death over a couple of rounds. A pack/pride/herd of animals can overwhelm the party. If you need more than that then advance the animal a few HD and maybe a size category and play it as a crazed rogue animal or some sort of lord of the jungle. And lastly don't forget that "normal" animals probably will stop being a significant threat once your players hit level 6-8. Thats the way things went for Conan too. He eventually graduated to worrying about "monsterous" animals like giant snakes and white apes and so should your players.
Later.
slaughterj
Mongoose
Sutek, I think I'm with you, no AP for animals. For creatures like snakes, I don't know that they finesse, because they attack people's boots just as much as anything, but clearly they don't penetrate boots, so no AP for them. For lions, etc., they might finesse (e.g., going for a hamstring or neck), but still not to avoid armor - they still likely go for a typical weak spot, e.g., the neck, even against a full plate armored foe. Even those sorts of animals don't penetrate armor like a broadsword or mace, so again no AP. For big monsters, who cares.
In sum, for creatures that need to finesee in order to have success (i.e., because they wouldn't otherwise penetrate armor), I would roll a finesse attack because that's the only way I can think of in the game system to represent the snake who bites the guy in the arm who is wearing leather armor - otherwise, the snake will unrealistically "bounce" all day long. For other creatures, I don't have to go through this exercise, and just make them roll, and apply damage, as again, I doubt creatures finesse, and combat runs at a fine pace because I don't have to consider AP for animals.
In sum, for creatures that need to finesee in order to have success (i.e., because they wouldn't otherwise penetrate armor), I would roll a finesse attack because that's the only way I can think of in the game system to represent the snake who bites the guy in the arm who is wearing leather armor - otherwise, the snake will unrealistically "bounce" all day long. For other creatures, I don't have to go through this exercise, and just make them roll, and apply damage, as again, I doubt creatures finesse, and combat runs at a fine pace because I don't have to consider AP for animals.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Sutek- as far as I am concerned anyone can use any system of rules they want. I posted my take on it if anyone want to use it they can. IMHO, the creatures of the Hyborian Age are more Primal and vibrant than those that inhabit our rather dismal Age, thus they are tougher/smarter- more resembling the animals of the African/Australian Dreamtime legends than modern zoo specimens. I'll await the comign Beastiary and likely make changes, adapt what I see fit in order to enhance my game. After all, the game is the whole plass of all this. 8)
Hyborian Apeman
Mongoose
Sutek said:
Sutek,
A human with a 26 strength (equivalent to a saber tooth tiger) wielding a broadsword would have an AP of 11 (3 + str bonus). The fact that the saber tooth tiger's claws have an AP 1 implies that its claws are 3 times duller than a broad sword. The strength is what makes up the difference.
argo,
The discussion about quality of armor came up because people were using modern day comparisons of steel armor to zoo bred creatures to demonstrate that those creatures’ claws can't tear through the armor. Raven's point is that this comparison is fallacious. The creatures in the Hyborian age are more fierce, and the armor at the time is not as strong as modern conceptions, therefore the argument that creatures couldn't cut through armor and thus have 0 AP is invalid.
The conception that a 26 strength saber tooth tiger couldn't cut through a brigandine coat is ridiculous. But with giving the tiger's claws an AP 0, that is exactly what the rules mechanic implies.
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