Centauri Republic fan- revised fleet list

[Slightly Norse John]

Right, let's get the ball rolling.
To begin with Patrol PL-
we already have the Corvan, Haven, generic breaching pods, Razik, Sentri, Rutarian, and Rutarian replacement wing.
Fighters first;
I still depend primarily on Razik. The Sentri is so poor an antiship fighter that it's only real use is in dogfight, and there, the older fighter has it. It's a Barracuda; a replacement that doesn't replace.
The Rutarian is basically second best at everything. It tries to be not good but great, and so achieves neither. On the other hand, when all's said and done there are races out there that would kill to have the Centauri's problems instead of their own.
What I'd like to do is leave the Razik alone- it does the job as a light fighter. Improve the Sentri a little- change the gun fit from 3AD weak to 2AD no traits, make it more use as a fighter bomber, and strip the Rutarian of it's pretensions as a master of all trades, make it more of an actual bomber.
Suggested stat line;
Speed 12, turn SM, hull 4, dogfight +1, Atmospheric, dodge 2+, Fighter
light particle array- 2, T, 3AD, twin linked
Ion bolt- 4, T, 1AD, Double dmg Precise.
Compared to the Thunderbolt, it loses hull and afterburner to pick up a better weapon fit. I reckon that's a fair enough trade. Put them up at 3 per wing, ditch the replacement idea entirely.

The Corvan in it's existing form does the job nicely, no alterations needed there- although I do want to play with the hull and possible variants. All (printably, anyway) I can think of doing with the Haven is retiring the stat line entirely as beyond help, and reusing the mini for something that actually might be useful.
What? Earth have their Hermes and Tethys- variants, the Narn (ptui) have their cutters, the League are full of small, lethal ships as are the sometime- allied Drakh. Especially, fellow lions of the galaxy, we have to look to defence against and ultimately revenge over the Drazi.
The tactical point occurs that a larger ship with heavy, long range pulse weapons should be able to split fire between smaller targets more effectively than a beam armed ship. Hmmm. This holds promise for the future- that said, there are several useful tactical tasks for a ship of this level.
Strike unit, equipped probably with ballistic weapons, intended to engage much larger enemies. (Expendably. don't tell the crew, it would only worry them.)
Patrol unit, to replace the Haven- tougher, less agile.
Light combat unit, expected to screen and beat off enemy ships of equal class.

Yes, I am about to indulge myself and reuse some of my own test hulls.
Hastati (use Haven mini) Strikeboat
Speed 12, turn 2/90, dodge 5+
Hull 4, damage 9/3, crew 9/2, no troops
Light Particle Gun- 4, T, 3AD, Antifighter weak
Either;
Ballistic torpedo- C; 12, F, 3AD, Super AP Precise
Ballistic torpedo- D; 15, F 1AD, Super AP Triple Damage
Ballistic torpedo- E; 30, F, 1AD, Super AP Precise Double damage Slow load

Barbulus class Attack Boat (Corvan variant)
Speed 12, turn 2/45, Interceptors 1, Dodge 5+
Hull 4, damage 12/4, crew 12/4, troops 1
Twin particle arrays- range 8, twin linked; 4AD F, 3AD each P, S, 2AD A
Ion bolt cannon; range 8, F, 2AD, Double damage Precise

Intercludor (Blocker) Fleet Defender
Speed 10, turn 2/90, Dodge 4+
Hull 4, damage 14/4, crew 15/4, troops 1
Ion Cannon- range 16, F, 4AD, AP
Twin Particle Array- range 8, T, 4AD twin link

Comments? Interpretations? Mag Gun shot?

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Right, moving swiftly on;
Skirmish.
Delete the Amar and Vorchar entirely. Not that there isn't a place for a heavy combat scout and a light carrier; just that they aren't it. After that, we have what I would call three functional ships, one variant thereof, and two oddities in search of a function.
The functionals are
Darkner; fast heavy weapons carrier, trading away survivability.
Maximus; high survivability defensive unit.
Vorchan; medium weight rapid strike, pack hunter. (The Vorchat being the variant.)
The Kutai and Morgrath bother me; I've never been able to find a use for them that something else couldn't do better or have a higher chance of coming back from. The Morgrath in particular looks so classically Centauri that we have to find some worthwhile use for it.

Starting with the Darkner, I'd love to give it a dice of Intercept, but I think that might be overdoing it. A decent Ion fit could easily render the matter cannon obsolete, actually.
So strip the battle lasers and the matter cannon, and replace with;
Heavy Ion Bolt Cannon; range 16, F, 4AD, AP Double Precise
Medium Ion Cannon; range 18, F, 6AD, AP Mini- beam

The Maximus could get away with being unchanged, probably, despite beng virtually the Centauri Nova in the early days.

The Vorchan, now...I'd be tempted to stick with the existing stats mostly, raise it to Damage 18/5, crew 22/6.
Keep the Plasma Accelerator, just give it back Super AP instead of AP. Adding precise, going to heavy Ion Bolt cannon- 16, AP Double Precise- might be a worthwhile alternative, but could be a bit too dependably lethal.
Replace the twin array with ion cannon- 12, F, 6AD, AP.

Vorchat raises interesting possibilities; it's exactly the same mini, there's no point going by the look of the thing. Loses 2 Speed, gains an extra Troop and a Sentri flight. Well and good. The weapons...it needs to lose front and gain flank firepower. Confirm the loss of 2" and Super AP on the main gun- which now has the stats of a matter cannon, so call a splat a splat- Increase the range of the A, P and S twin particle arrays to 8- call it a wholsesale replacement of the Vorchan's ions- and that should be good.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

More Skirmish; two ships without a job, and two jobs without a ship.
The Kutai is a patrol level hull with raid level guns. I've never been able to find a target tough enough for it to be worth having a go against and simultaneously weak enough to have a decent chance of getting out alive. Like the Haven, find another job for the mini, kill the stat line. (Even at best, it's too similar to existing pack hunters.)

The Morgrath, on the other hand, is a shade fragile but starts to look very interesting after the elimination of battle lasers. Upgrade it to fit into the mould of a light warship, intended to act against enemy escort and light attack craft.
Speed 8, turn 2/45, Interceptors 2
hull 5, damage 20/5, crew 22/8, troops 1
Plasma stream- range 10, F, 4AD, AP Beam
Matter cannon- range 12, F, 4AD, AP Double damage
Heavy Particle Gun- range 8, T, 4AD, twin linked anti- fighter
it doesn't have the damage dealing capability to go after enemy heavy warships, giving clear tactical separation between itself and the Drakner and Vorchan, but it can deal with skirmishers and Hull-5 fairly adeptly, I should think.

The jobs without a mini are light carrier, and combat scout. Given the comments in the errata on the Balvarin, I'm far from sure the Centauri are actually supposed to have an effective light carrier.
However, for pure self gratification,
Turbator (disturber) Light Carrier
Speed 8, turn 1/45, Carrier 2, Interceptors 2, Jump Point
Hull 4, damage 24/6, crew 28/7, troops 2, 4 Sentri flight
Twin Arrays- range 8, twin linked, F 6AD, A, P, S each 2AD

Combat scout is trickier. The Vorchar basically surrenders it's main gun for Scout and Stealth- perhaps not at Skirmish.
One thing that does interest me. Why the Adira? A White Star hunter, and a very dubious way of going about it too- personally, I'd be rather more worried about Warbirds.
Ultor (Avenger) class
Speed 12, turn 2/45, Dodge 5+
Hull 5, damage 16/4, crew 18/5
Ion Lances- 18, F, 4AD, Super AP Precise
Ion Repeater- 10, F, 4AD, Super AP Mini- beam

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Interesting stuff. A different tack than I was going to take, but interesting all the same.

 

[Target]

The Kutai Gunship could be more like an Olympus.
Speed 8 2/45 turns
Hull 5
12 Hits 12 Crew
Troops 1
Dodge 5+

Matter Cannon T 12" 6 AD AP,DD
Particle arrays F 8" 6 AD Twinlinked
Ballistic Torpedo F 30" 2 AD SAP, Precise, Slow Loading

Haven increase Hull to 5, crew to 8 , probably Matter Cannon to 12" it might work. It is fast and manuverable should great making a mess of Drazi since it can out turn them.
Vorchan gets SAP back, Demos is Tourney but with more hits, maybe AJP.
Dargans, Balvarix gets Rutarian mix on board.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Yes, well, I wasn't going to sit back and let you have all the fun :lol:
Whatever occurs, put it up so we can shoot at it. In some cases literally. In any case, this is a first draft, and is going to need streamlining and editing.
Raid;
Existing units first as usual.
The Altarian- it's not a ship I ever have very much use for. A solid, medium design. I'm inclined to let it go unchanged, keep it as a baseline.
Magnus- gives up four dice of matter cannon and four dice of twin array to gain two dice of battle laser as is. It's a peculiar combination, and I'm inclined to revise it (treading firmly on all known forms of AoG canon) as the Ion variant of the Altarian destroyer.
Keep the rest of the stat block and the twin arrays, replace the aft matter cannon with Light Ion Cannon- 18, A, 6AD, AP Precise;
replace the forward matter cannon and battle laser with Medium Ion Cannon-24, F, 8AD, AP Precise
Elutarian, I'm inclined to leave unchanged.
The Balvarin is very difficult to get good use out of currently, because it can't deploy fast enough. In the original version and Tourney lists, it has Carrier 2 and Interceptors 2. Carrier rating makes the difference between being able to deploy a useful number of fighters or not- to actually be worth taking, it ought to have them back.
The Centurion and the Prefect. This could become spectacularly controversial.
Replace the Centurion's battle lasers with medium ion cannon- 24, F, 6AD, AP Double Precise;
replace the Prefect's with medium ion repeaters- 24, F, 6AD, AP Double Precise Mini-beam. Rest to follow.

 

[Ripple]

Not sure I like the idea of adding all that precise without removing the beam stack. Seems you just want to up the fleet without any acknowledgement of the strong hulls already in the list. All that precise stopping things for your CAF'd beams seems a bit much.

Mind you I am a fan of the Ion weapon biased Centauri, and not entirely against precise as a fit for the uniqueness value. Just feel that the combo might be a bit over the top.

Ripple

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Ripple, which ship or ships specifically is it you think is over the top? Prefect? It is forty years newer than the Centurion, that should be some step forward (and if you think it's bad now, wait until I start thinking about incorporating Drakh and Shadow technology)- it gets ion repeaters, as mini- beam, as opposed to ion cannon. Probably the hull should drop back to 5.
Oops. Just realised they would still have all their matter cannon...that would indeed put both of them up into the same sort of power range as the wonderful but difficult-to-find-opponents-for Targrath.
Precise makes some sort of sense. Double precise doesn't necessarily- remove Double Damage from both ships' ion weapons.
Dargan; considering the way I usually use them, it's a terrible temptation to rewrite it to suit myself and replace the laser with something like a turreted heavy array. I shall resist- and bear it in mind for another design.
This one would remove the beam for Medium Ion cannon; 24, F, 4AD, AP Double damage Precise.
Demos; a whole new design that incorporates the best technology the Centauri possess, and the only special it has is Jump Point? Right. If the basic Vorchan's stats go up, increasing it's in proportion- damage 23/7, crew 28/8, might give it a little back. And one dice of interceptors.
The Salust- just for laughs, here are it's original stats;
Patrol level,
Speed 10, turn 2/45, interceptors 1
Hull 4, damage 14/4, crew 16/5,
Battle Laser- range 12,F, 1AD, AP Beam
Twin Particle Array- range 6, twin linked weak; F 6AD, P,S each 4AD.
Not that this matters in any way, but I present it as a guide to just how radically ships' stats can change from one edition of the game to another.
The fluff points pretty clearly to a large number of medium to low effect dice, useful against small ships.
Medium Ion Cannon, range 24, F, 12AD, AP Mini-beam to replace the SFoS set of lasers.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

So, how do the centauri Raiders come out of that?
We have the reasonably survivable, close range brawler Altarian, whose inexplicable lack of agility still biases me against it;
The Elutarian, which ought to find more holes for it's torpedoes now, with ion cannon removing interceptors for it;
the Magnus, using older ion technology, capable of landing large numbers of potentially disabling hits;
An effective medium carrier in the revised Balvarin;
an agile strikeboat with disabling and smashing weapons in the Centurion;
A more straightforward pounder in the Prefect;
a brittle but very hard- hitting assault ship in the Dargan (I was tempted to add Stealth 3+, but decided it didn't make sense now)
a close range attacker with huge damage potential in the Demos- possibly it should have Adv Jump Point;
an effective area denial ship in the Salust.
After revising the Centurion and prefect, the Dargan would be the only ship with double damage ion cannon. That can't be right. it's tinkering time.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't understand what you're trying to do here. It'd be nice if you formatted the stat blocks so they're easier to read instead of just sticking them in the rest of the text.

 

[Voronesh]

Well the idea seems to be great, and most ships seem to be very good. without the homegrown munchkin syndrom.

But your first actually ship the Hastati is borderline overpowered. It has more firepower than a Hermes. No fighter flight yes, but dodge. And Hermes has a weaker AF loadout.

And i have to agree with Ripple, there should be a definite breakup between beam or precise heavy. Id love ion cannons, but having both seems a bit strong.

And it would be great if you could make a bigger difference from plain text and ship stats please. ^^

 

[Captain Kremmen]

The Vorchan, now...I'd be tempted to stick with the existing stats mostly, raise it to Damage 18/5, crew 22/6.
Keep the Plasma Accelerator, just give it back Super AP instead of AP. Adding precise, going to heavy Ion Bolt cannon- 16, AP Double Precise- might be a worthwhile alternative, but could be a bit too dependably lethal.
Replace the twin array with ion cannon- 12, F, 6AD, AP.


YES - Anything that makes the Vorchan a great ship is OK with me

Kremmen

 

[angelus2000]

Agreed with Kremmen on the Vorchan thing. I think Ka'tocs die quck but these things are ridiculous when it come to popping quick with nothing to show for it. its an eggshell without the requisite sledgehammer

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Ahh, I'm back- and slightly baffled. Which ships still retain their battle lasers?

Just to clear up one early bit of confusion- there are (would be? tenses get confusing when you're talking about calling imaginary things into existence)-
The Hastati; there are actually three seperate versions. All of them have the same non-weapon stat block and turret antifighter, Hastati- C carries Torpedo-C, (modelled on the Hermes, losing range and an AD for greater rate of fire) Hastati-D carries Torpedo-D, taken from the stats of the Demos, Hastati- E carries torpedo-E, the long range bombardment round otherwise seen on the Elutarian.

Clear text stat lines for the raiders; Altarian, Elutarian unchanged.
Magnus;
Speed 10, turn 1/45, Jump Point
Hull 6, damage 30/6, crew 34/6, troops 2, 1 Sentri flight
Medium Ion cannon; range 24, F, 8AD, AP Precise
Light Ion Cannon; range 18, A, 6AD, AP
Twin Arrays; range 8, twin linked, F 6AD, A, P, S each 4AD

Centurion;
Speed 10, turn 2/45, Jump Point
Hull 5, damage 35/8, crew 38/8, troops 4
Medium Ion Cannon; 24, F, 6AD, AP Precise
Matter Cannon; 12, F, 6AD, AP Double Damage
Twin Particle Arrays; range 8, twin linked, F 10AD, P, S each 6AD

Prefect;
Speed 8, turn 1/45, Jump Point
Hull 5, damage 35/8, crew 8/8, troops 2
Medium Ion Repeaters; 24, F, 6AD Super AP Precise Mini-beam
Matter Cannon; 12, F, 6AD, AP Double damage
Twin Particle Arrays; range 8, twin linked; F 6AD, P, S each 4AD

Balvarin; Add Carrier 2, Interceptors 2 to special rules, otherwise unchanged.

Sulust;
Speed 10, turn 1/45, Interceptors 2
Hull 5, damage 35/6, crew 38/7, Troops 3
Light Ion Repeaters; 24, F, 12AD, AP Mini-beam
Twin Particle Arrays; range 8, twin linked; F 8AD, P, S 4AD

Does that make things clearer? I expect to do a more radical hatchet job on Raid level eventually.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

It's much clearer, yes. I'm not too sure about mini-beams for ion cannons of any sort. It doesn't seem to fit. In the show we see the Primus' ion shots being intercepted, and various "fluff" sources state that the Primus, while an old class, is constantly updated and refitted with new systems. So if the Primus doesn't carry ion cannons that can't be intercepted, it's unlikely that any ship does.

 

[Target]

Don't think the Balvarian needs Interceptors 2, at most Int 1. It does have a bucket load of hits and crew.

 

[Ripple]

Okay...clearer now that you are working through the entire fleet replacing beams.

The Prefect only concerns me with the super ap.

Pretty happy actually with the other ships.

From earlier posts...

Intercludor- the dodge is too high or the damage/crew for this to be a patrol. Especially with its manuever ability.

Barbulus- again here I see layered defenses making it too durable, maybe add slow loading to the Bolt. Balances durabitlity verse firepower over time.

Hastati, while I would hate to fly against it, I cannot argue that it is better than a hermes weapon wise (missle variants make the difference). I do think the two 90's is a bit much, 2 45's would be better especially give the range.

Disagree with your assesment of the Rutarian upgrade. You do lose hull, but the afterburner lose is made up for by a higher base speed. You guns are considerably better as well with the twin link.

Vorchan/Vorchat- fine

Maximus- argree...fine ship

Darkner- do not like the range on the Medium Ion Cannon, even the mini-beam seems out of place here. Not sure given later posts but like to see some more consistency in the trait to name terminology.

Kutai- seems good

Morgrath- hmmm...interesting. Plasma stream are traits are not exactly the same as others.

That's all for now.

Ripple

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Once the list is formed, I'll go back and round up the weapon stats that emerged on the way.
What I have been doing so far is making a distinction between ion bolt weapons, derived directly from the Rutarian's unit, which tend to be relatively short ranged (8" or 16"), and at least Double damage Precise,
Ion cannon, the AP to AP Precise to AP Double Precise, 14-24" so far, and the later, more advanced ion repeaters, which are mini- beam, and appear on the newer and more advanced units, hopefully with some kind of trade off.
I'm not at all sure what I want to do with the Primus and derivatives yet, but the basic Primus probably wouldn't have them, while a ship with an in service date of 2263+ like the Tertius very probably would. Possibly they sent the older version, with more raw firepower, to Babylon 5 because they knew they would have to take on an interceptorless Narn cruiser, and arrogantly assumed Babylon 5 would back down.
Raid- I want to tinker with some of the other stats of them as well. The Elutarian I've never been outstandingly happy with. It's a conversion of a hull that's simply not suited- I'd happily trade it in for a more fragile version with better secondaries. Of course,the name has to start with E, so-
Expugnator (Conqueror) class missile destroyer
Speed 7, turn 1/45, Jump Point, Interceptors 1
Hull 5, damage 25/6, crew 32/7, troops 2
Ballistic Torpedo, range 30, F, 3AD, Double damage Precise Slow- loading Super AP
Ballistic Torpedo, range 30, F, 3AD, Double damage Precise Slow- loading Super AP
Medium Ion Cannon; range 24, F, 5AD, AP
Twin Particle Array; range 8, twin linked, A, P, S each 4AD

Something else I'd like to see is a fast, agile raid leader, different from the usual speed 8 and 10. Something suitable as a flagship for Vorchan packs, still tinkering as to what. Possibly a plasma stream carrier. Also a ship or two that incorporates evil technology- Shadow and Drakh influenced. More likely to turn up on a medium small ship, than to bet the price of a behemoth and the associated programme on something that might totally fail to work.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

The Hastati was originally tested as a Haven variant; basically, it inherited some of it's stats. 2/90 probably is more than a ship with long range weapons needs.
The Intercludor might be able to drop to Dodge 5+, I'd want to do some shooting at it to be sure.
The Barbulus was originally a modified Corvan, trading Stealth, Scout and fighters for the upgraded defences and weapons; it seemed fine on paper. If anything, I'd ditch the interceptors, keep the guns the way they are.
The Darkner's service date is 2249. The Ion cannon should be Ion Repeaters, I'm assuming the in service date for that technology is sometime around 2247, after the lessons of the Earth-Minbari War start to sink in. They are available on most new construction, although not necessarily desirable- the carrying ship should lose something to fit them, available engine power, raw AD, fighters.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Suggested additions to Raid level, then;

Accipiter (Hawk) class Strike Leader
Speed 14, turn 2/45, Jump Point, Scout
Hull 5, damage 32/5, crew 36/6, troops 4, 2 Sentri flights
Heavy Array- 15, T, 6AD, Double damage Twin- link
Twin Arrays- 8, Twin Linked, 4AD each F, A, P, S
A turret heavy weapon is a real stretch, but it's not going to be an installation repeated very often- it's there to cover the flanks and rear of the Vorchan the ship is designed to accompany, likewise the advanced tracker- designators where the front gun fit would normally be.

Atrox (Gloomy) class
2259-60 attempt to incorporate Shadow technology, based on the Salust hull
Speed 8, turn 1/45, Interceptors 1
Hull 5, damage 35/6, crew 38/7
Molecular Slicer Beam- range 15, F, 3AD, Beam Precise Super AP Triple damage
Twin Arrays; range 8, twin linked, F, P, S each 3AD
Why should EA have all the fun? Arguably, the Centauri had far more Shadow tech to play with, they had an awful lot of Narn territory that had Shadow weapons used on it, they had ships based on their own planet (and whatever remnants survived the blast wave), at least as much contact with them as the EA did. Then there's prolonged contact with the Drakh- admittedly not in a nice way, but still.

Fugo (Repulse) class
Very late period (Emperor Cotto, 22-what? 69, 70?) Drakh hunter
Speed 8, turn 2/45, Jump Point
Hull 6, damage 20/6, crew 24/7, troops 2
Heavy Ion Lances- 20, F, 4AD, Super AP Triple damage Precise
Its heavily armoured to help keep the beams out (but Damage and Crew are only fractionally better than the known- problem Chronos), it has decent speed and agility, and a very powerful primary weapon to burn through GEG and land important damage- but no other weapons, no flank fire or fighter support.
I want this one to be a real one trick pony; highly useful against a narrow range of targets. Not sure about the Ion Lances, though, they might be a bit too nifty. They could be worth, in view of the target, dropping to AP?