Greg Smith
Mongoose
I don't think I've ever seen Ken not use pentacons.
Centauri Hunting Packs - A Question for you Chaps
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
msprange said:
I would have to agree, one way or another the its going to vapourize one, maybe two ships (if not acting as a hunting pack). But in the mean time, my Hyperions are all going to boresight as many ships as possible and kill the skirmish level ships anyway. And if I'm playing my ISA I will just send a group of suicide blue stars and ram 5 (I use squadrons of 5 cause I only have 10) of the ships (probably causing 18 damage over there damage thresholds causing the 6th guy considerable trouble). My Brikiri use there gravitic mines and that new Halik variant to cause pain. Shadows... just don't care (go go Shields and regenerate). Crusade era EA is going to be fielding as many missiles as possible, might as well use some fusion missiles to pacify the pack. Minbari... again just don't care (stealth for the win). As for the other fleets, Drazi send claweagles and sleekbirds at them an board them. Abbai... well okay these guys don't really have a counter point. Dilgar use there penticons to force them to move first and get the upper hand that way (also those blasted AS missiles are annoying). Narn just E-Mine them a bunch. Gaim E-mine them alot. So does the Pak'ma'ra once there in range (gonna have to trade one ship). Vree go nuts with all that double damage and SM (again, gonna have to trade one ship). Vorlons... well I have no love for the vorlon (posiedons may baby vorlons cry). Drahk have too many ships for a hunting pack to make a huge difference anyway.
If worse comes to worse, I'd just fly my own squad of Skirmish level ships inside his formation to maximize arcs and damage (4 Artimis frigates do the job quite nicely). One way or another, once that hunting pack comes in range its going to loose ships (not the 's'... as in plural... more then 1) and it won't be a hunting pack anymore.
In the end its a one shot wonder
hmm interesting - except of course your boresighted Hyperions have 18" range - just over half that of the Elutarian and its accompanying Demos / Sullust team. Same with 90% of the options you outline. Also worth noting that most Centauri fleets are +4 In (due to Balvarin) to get that important first salvo in first.
When you are in range - well the Pack has now split so it has the in sinks to counter your moves.
The Hunting pack is most effective in the first couple of turns with max number of ships and then like any other squadron splits off ships to deal with In sinks (considering the enemy may have lost one IN sinking ship as well)
Blue Star ram ships -well as I understand it the Skindance cheesy ram has been removed or at least toned down. - I think only rams on a 1 and otherwise just sits there not being able to fire if CQ check failed. Normal raming is by no means a certainy as you need several CQ checks to succeed.
Shadows do care actually as unless jumping in behind or having terrain to manipulate a Shadow ship is going to get a lot of pain (been there - seen that)
Vorlons - well it does effect them as a big ship could go down (or more likely be critted out of action)
Drakh - well actually the pack may be able to go after that carrier and kill it before it can launch the raiders.
Minbari - true their stealth as always helps
Emines - yeah not bad - if you have enough of them and if they have the range to more than one ship (And the emine ship is not dead in the case of the Narn)
EA skrimish ships are quite good - but how many turns before your are in range -and the pack is likely several ships and a squadron now. Don't forget the Centauri Demos has its own interceptors and in larger games maybe even a nearby Maximus to lend them to ships under attack.
See thats the thing - its a a major extra boost to the Centauri in several ways - range, size of squadrons.
- it might be only used first two turns but they may be enough and by the time most of the other counters you describe come into effect both the damage is done and the pack is dispanded with virtually no disadvantage.
And thats why I personally feel its broken...............and my main fleet is Centauri
When you are in range - well the Pack has now split so it has the in sinks to counter your moves.
The Hunting pack is most effective in the first couple of turns with max number of ships and then like any other squadron splits off ships to deal with In sinks (considering the enemy may have lost one IN sinking ship as well)
Blue Star ram ships -well as I understand it the Skindance cheesy ram has been removed or at least toned down. - I think only rams on a 1 and otherwise just sits there not being able to fire if CQ check failed. Normal raming is by no means a certainy as you need several CQ checks to succeed.
Shadows do care actually as unless jumping in behind or having terrain to manipulate a Shadow ship is going to get a lot of pain (been there - seen that)
Vorlons - well it does effect them as a big ship could go down (or more likely be critted out of action)
Drakh - well actually the pack may be able to go after that carrier and kill it before it can launch the raiders.
Minbari - true their stealth as always helps
Emines - yeah not bad - if you have enough of them and if they have the range to more than one ship (And the emine ship is not dead in the case of the Narn)
EA skrimish ships are quite good - but how many turns before your are in range -and the pack is likely several ships and a squadron now. Don't forget the Centauri Demos has its own interceptors and in larger games maybe even a nearby Maximus to lend them to ships under attack.
See thats the thing - its a a major extra boost to the Centauri in several ways - range, size of squadrons.
- it might be only used first two turns but they may be enough and by the time most of the other counters you describe come into effect both the damage is done and the pack is dispanded with virtually no disadvantage.
And thats why I personally feel its broken...............and my main fleet is Centauri
Da Boss covered the majority of the effect here Joe, but...
One of the important bits that is missing here is the 'if you know who your up against...' then there are at least theoretical counters. But what if you don't know? Rules like this significantly cramp tourney or random pick up play, where you don't necessarily know your opponent.
One reason swarm fleets are so powerful is that they work now matter what your opponent brings. Big ship fleets only work against mixed and other big ship fleets, so folks all learned to lean towards the swarm to be safe.
Stealth was powerful as you had to always take anti stealth ships, just in case, even though they might otherwise offer nothing to your fleet.
Same here, if you forced to always take the answer to the Centauri hunting pack, you have effectively reduced the valid choices in the game rather than expanding the options.
And one trick pony or not, if the one trick is a good one, it is still a game winner. I'll note that everything you suggest was suggested as to why the Sag was not an issue. The part your missing is that alpha strikes set up a continuing curve. If all I can take out is a middling ship, trading one is no big deal, but if it is your largest ship or a unique one important to your battle plan, then the trick pays for itself.
One of the important bits that is missing here is the 'if you know who your up against...' then there are at least theoretical counters. But what if you don't know? Rules like this significantly cramp tourney or random pick up play, where you don't necessarily know your opponent.
One reason swarm fleets are so powerful is that they work now matter what your opponent brings. Big ship fleets only work against mixed and other big ship fleets, so folks all learned to lean towards the swarm to be safe.
Stealth was powerful as you had to always take anti stealth ships, just in case, even though they might otherwise offer nothing to your fleet.
Same here, if you forced to always take the answer to the Centauri hunting pack, you have effectively reduced the valid choices in the game rather than expanding the options.
And one trick pony or not, if the one trick is a good one, it is still a game winner. I'll note that everything you suggest was suggested as to why the Sag was not an issue. The part your missing is that alpha strikes set up a continuing curve. If all I can take out is a middling ship, trading one is no big deal, but if it is your largest ship or a unique one important to your battle plan, then the trick pays for itself.
As that is not covered in the specific stuff about hunting packs, presumably it falls under "In all other respects the Hunting Pack acts as a normal squadron".
The question therefore becomes, does a squadron make one stealth roll for the whole squadron or one for each member of the squadron?
The question therefore becomes, does a squadron make one stealth roll for the whole squadron or one for each member of the squadron?
Clanger
Mongoose
A normal squadron does not share the targetting data to get the 50% so each ship fires on its own. As there targets are with in range.
My point is if 1 ship in range is using its targetting data to give the rest of the hunting pack 50% range increase. My point is if 1 ship is giving this data, slaving the rests targeting computers to its own. So 1 set of info for the extra range so 1 stealth roll (for the ship in range)
My point is if 1 ship in range is using its targetting data to give the rest of the hunting pack 50% range increase. My point is if 1 ship is giving this data, slaving the rests targeting computers to its own. So 1 set of info for the extra range so 1 stealth roll (for the ship in range)
Yep as written you make separate rolls.
Once the first ship has attacked, all ships are in range anyway because their range just increased..!
But it would make sense for just 1 roll, unless Matt can come up with some good fluff reasons that they should all roll separately
Once the first ship has attacked, all ships are in range anyway because their range just increased..!
But it would make sense for just 1 roll, unless Matt can come up with some good fluff reasons that they should all roll separately
Yeah sounds fair: I don't see why they should get the extra range when the lead ship can't see the enemy! No see = no targetting data to share!
This leads to the question, when do you declare your hunting pack targets,a nd whether they will act like a HP or a normal squadron? Squadron fire must all be declared at once, before stealth rolls are made. So you'd have to declare that it is acting like a HP, then roll the lead ship to see if you get the extra range. If he fails then your other ships are all out of range... but their target is declared... so they lose their shots!
This leads to the question, when do you declare your hunting pack targets,a nd whether they will act like a HP or a normal squadron? Squadron fire must all be declared at once, before stealth rolls are made. So you'd have to declare that it is acting like a HP, then roll the lead ship to see if you get the extra range. If he fails then your other ships are all out of range... but their target is declared... so they lose their shots!
Chandler said:
playing devils advocate if the lead ship sees it and is sharing targeting data then technically they shouldn't have to roll (but would have to roll if it did not and would not get extra range)
- however in game terms thats a bit nasty.................the +1 from the lead ship seeing it would help unless the bloody Minbari/Shadows etc are skulking in asteroid field :evil:
From the clarification PDF:
I seem to be the only person so far not to assume that there is only one pack ship which can hit the target without the range boost.
So the pack declares that it is a pack, declares its target, and anything already in range rolls to break stealth. The first one to make it gives the usual +1 bonus to every subsequent ship, the range boost is in effect, the rest of the pack get to make their stealth rolls. If none of the ships which are in range without the boost make successful stealth rolls, then they can not attack the target ship, therefore there is no range boost, tough luck on the rest of the pack.
I seem to be the only person so far not to assume that there is only one pack ship which can hit the target without the range boost.
Chandler
Mongoose
Gotta love asteroid fields!
I get your point but as you said it would be very nasty to have the ships automatically negate stealth. The hunting pack is very powerful so saying that if a stealthed ship cannot be seen once a whole squadron has decalred as attacking it is just one potential weakness that I would have no objection to.
However if the first ship sees it then the others are at +1 to see it. This is what is given to a normal squadron in this situation and it is more than enough - if this were allowed why couldn't normal squadrons do the same thing and say they shared targeting data so if one ship sees it they all do?
I get your point but as you said it would be very nasty to have the ships automatically negate stealth. The hunting pack is very powerful so saying that if a stealthed ship cannot be seen once a whole squadron has decalred as attacking it is just one potential weakness that I would have no objection to.
However if the first ship sees it then the others are at +1 to see it. This is what is given to a normal squadron in this situation and it is more than enough - if this were allowed why couldn't normal squadrons do the same thing and say they shared targeting data so if one ship sees it they all do?
I thought that's exactly what they are doing, and not just squadrons! That's why the next ship gets the +1 bonus - it's receiving targetting data from the ship which spotted the target in the first place. That is, unless the spotting ship is destroyed. If nobody else has broken the target's stealth and is able to take over the job, the next ship to fire does not get the bonus because it can't share data from a ship that is no longer there.
Anyway, if you want to automatically negate stealth, you don't play Centauri. You play Brakiri and take as many of the new Haltana as you can afford. Park a squadron of four of those next to a Leshath and watch the Minbari player's face. :twisted:
Anyway, if you want to automatically negate stealth, you don't play Centauri. You play Brakiri and take as many of the new Haltana as you can afford. Park a squadron of four of those next to a Leshath and watch the Minbari player's face. :twisted:
