Centauri Hunting Packs

[Da Boss]

Back to the debate.

Short version - I as a Centauri player consider them a uneccsary additional advantage for the following reasons:

a) We already already recieved a very good carrier in P+P, which alone is better than may of the things other people got (pak'mara for instance, Dilgar is another)

b) large squadrons are a Dilgar advantage - this gives Centauri nearly the same (larger squadron, range vs restrictions on ships) for absolutely no penalty. which brings me to

c) The most oft stated disadvantage - ie loss of flexibility / In sinks is not at all realistic as after a couple of turns firing you can break up as you require and as you don't have to fire as a pack - your side guns (if present) can also fire.

d) It gives a boost to the smaller Centauri shps like the Demos - which itself just recieved a nerf because itwas way too good - which is somewhat counter intuative.? If we needed anything else something for the big ships would have been better.

I have now played with it twice in competative games and seen it played several times and have found nothing to change these views. if I get time I'll put up the latest game we used it in. Large Squadrons are extremely powerful - esp with long range and F arc weapons and seldome need long to make an impact.

but still let the debate begin I would especially be interested to see a report of a competative game where the hunting pack proved to be the disadvantage its often claimed to be.....

 

[H]

argh!

 

[Burger]

Dilgar got Alpha Strike! That is great!

 

[McKickaha]

Must admit if the poll was now rerun I would most defintiely vote -

"delete hunting pack rule"

 

[Da Boss]

Dilgar got Alpha Strike! That is great!

Really? we could not get it to work in the games we have played.
or am I missing the scarcasm........

 

[H]

didn;t get Alphastrike to work in the game i played either, possibly because my Kabrokta was anhialating ships left right and centre so the poor dilgar never got a chance

 

[Burger]

Hmm, I thought it sounded quite useful. Good for migrating those "useless" 1-1 Engines crits that I always seem to get, to automatically be adrifts!

 

[Da Boss]

It does "sound" good but it is not at all easy to pull off (starting with a CQ 9 check)

 

[Digger]

Oh Bugger - Please Not Again!! :x

 

[Da Boss]

I only brought it up cos it was mentioned as being debated on the thread about the P+P pdf.

 

[Chandler]

Get rid of or replace the rule???

It's overpowered and is just not needed.

 

[Democratus]

I've just begun playing 2nd edition and our primary battles are Centauri vs. Narn. The change from 1st edition is quite startling.

For some reason, the Narn with their borrowed Centauri technology now have much longer range. Between Emines, Ion Torpedoes, and Heavy Lasers the Narn fleets are able to heavily damage the Centauri before the purple crestheads are even able to open fire. The Dag'Kar is a case in point.

The Hunting Packs rule allows the Centauri to also play the Stand-off game in exchange for loosing init sinks early in the game. This loss of sinks is quite significant when playing a Boresight race like the Narn.

If they aren't going to make Battle Lasers a superior weapon to the Narn "stolen" Heavy Laser technology - then it makes sense the Centauri would have a technological advantage in targeting and coordination.

The one change I would make in this special rule is that the ships must be within 6" to use this rule. Having an admiral that extends squadron ranges to 9" starts to strain things.

Just my POV.

 

[Da Boss]

Interesting - what shipsa re you usuing as the Centauri also have their own stand off ships - Elutarian and Sullust, and the Demos having speed 14 and range 20 torps means the Narn are usually in range on turn 1.

(note stand off fleets are not my first choice as IMO the best range for a Centauri player is usually 9"-12" as you are able to blast the Narn back into the stone age with virtual impunity by ultalising far superior speed and agility to keep out of arcs),

(plus I like to charge in ).

5pt raid stand off fleet
Elutarian
Elutarian
Sullust
Demos
Demos
Demos
Maximus

Squadron the top 4 and they should be able to hammer any big ships that have beams.

All can cruise slowly forward on CBD relying on a combination of that and reasonable hull scores to deal with the emines, interceptors to deal with ion torpedoes.

if you put the first six into a hunting pack you should be able to hammer most ships.........

re battle lasers - whislt they are shorter range - they are F arc - a very important difference and of course precise - which should get you your criticals.

You should find that most Centauri vs Narn battles end the right way - I don't think I have ever been beaten in 2nd edition by Narn.

 

[locarno24]

The heavy laser is nice but it's unwieldy - especially on a race with a lower initiative bonus than the Centauri and especially especially against a Centauri player with a taste for skirmish-priority hunting packs.

Yes, the Narns may get a punch or two in first, but they tend to get quickly flanked and shot to snot by ion cannon fire once things get into knife fighting range.

Energy mines are scary but never seem to actually do that much damage. Maybe I have excessive expectations.

Remember that the heavy laser isn't just stolen - it's stolen, reverse engineered and then developed seperately by the narns; the battle laser is more precise (hence precise), more energy efficient (not that that matters), more compact (hence being in a forward turret not a fixed mount) and above all a secondary weapon. The heavy laser is a primary weapon for killing stuff.

The battle laser is designed to pick off interceptor-equipped targets and critical systems - it's a secondary weapon to support the ion cannons. By comparison, the heavy laser is about the only weapon on most narn ships that carry one that really does much good; light ion cannons are a joke and the energy mines only carry a single volley.

 

[Democratus]

Interesting - what shipsa re you usuing as the Centauri also have their own stand off ships - Elutarian and Sullust, and the Demos having speed 14 and range 20 torps means the Narn are usually in range on turn 1.

I'm using the Elutarian and Sullust now. They work best in Hunting Packs where the Sullust gets range 36" when the Elutarian is in range. The Elutarian is also a good stablemate to the Primus, giving it's beams a 27" range. But it's low hull makes it extrememly vulnerable to Emines and Ion Torpedos - a Narn specialty.

Our local gaming group plays 2259 and before, so the Demos is never an option.

The last game we played was the Centauri assault on Ragesh 14 (think I have the name wrong) - which starts the Cent fleet 60ish" away to start. They had to eat long range fire for a looong time while coming in. The Narn are only at a 1 point penalty for init which isn't much. On top of that, they have enough init sinks to guarantee Boresight on their enemies.

4 Dag'Kar and 3 Cruisers with 30" Heavy Lasers will maul the closing enemy.

I'm suprised to hear that your perferred Centauri tactic is to close in. Narn cruisers in particular have good all-round firepower. It also seems to be an odd switch in personalities for the 'barbaric' Narn to be better at stand off, while the 'civilized' Centauri charge in for a brawl. :lol:

It's using the Hunting Pack rule that I am able to (somewhat) answer back the whithering fire thrown by the Narn. Without it I would find myself too reduced in strength to win the close-range end game.

Of course I'm still learning this game. I could easily be missing a great deal of tactical wisdom that is obvious to experienced players. Feel free to educate me.

 

[Da Boss]

Great Maker, you are not loosing to G'Quans are you! :shock:

My Good Dear Friend, sit down and let us discuss the finer ways of smiting the impudent upstarts, pour us a drink and listen to the words of an old warrior............

A few notes re your games

The current version of Hunting packs means that you can't include ships higher PL than Raid so no Primus I am afriad
.
The Elutarin has Hull 6 so many emine dice should not hit it that easily and it should be always on Close Blast Doors so ignore more damage - it can't be criticalled by the emines. I'd bet on a Elutarin in a one on one duel with a Dag'Kar.

If you are restricted to the dates noted that leaves out some of my favourite ships - Liati and Demos but luckily the Centauri fleet is anything by a one trick pony.

Most engagements should start out at no more than 36" between the deployment zones.

Against the stated 5 pt Battle (?) fleet I would have gone for (given the fleet ISD restrictions)

1 pt Primus

2pt Primus - Squadron both Primus

3pt Elutarin, Vorchan, Vorchan (squadron the Vorchans)

4pt Balvarin, Vorchan, Vorchan (squadron the Vorchans)

5pt, Sullust, Maximus, Kutai, Kutai


Primus Squadron advances head on on close blast doors or all power if feeling lucky - escorted by Maximus on CBD and lending interceptors vs Ion torps.

Balvarin hangs back, laucnhes fighters (which keep out of the way of the other ships - foricing him to choose to either hit them or your ships)and with the two kutais acts as an In sink - providing an extremely useful +1 Command bonus (+2 is a big thing).

Vorchans go up either flank at full speed on CBD and attempt to get in on the sides (taking advantage of any terrain of course)

Elutarin and Sullust choose one target - stay on CBD and keep firing till its dead.

The big advantage the Centauri have is once the attack ships get in the sides of the Narn - they outrange ALL their secondaries (that all important 9-12" gap I mentioned) and are agile enough to stay there - and have immense firepower - Double damage weapons hurt - and if they are shooting at hull 4 ships - its your birthday.

In a normal game you will take some damage on turn 1 but baring very unlucky rolls / crits should weather it nicely leaving you strike ships in rnage on turn 2 and your Primus's coming in for the kill on turn 3.

The Centauri may be advanced but they love to get in close and watch the lesser races wither and shatter under the sheer weight of fire they can produce at short range.

The new hunting pack rules makes the above even easier.

 

[Democratus]

Thanks. That all sounds great! Where would I get the latest version of the rule? I just paid for the book in print and am not particularly inclined to pay a second time for a pdf. Is there a new FAQ with this change?

This does mean that you can still squad up the Sullust and Elutarin, right? They are a powerful stand off force.

I'll give the close-in manuvering aspect of the Centauri fleet a go. Sounds like - win or loose - it should be very interesting.

I especially like the idea of flanking Vorchans since I just bought several of the minis. The ships look stupendous!

 

[Da Boss]

Enjoy yourself - take back the galaxy My Friend

The original version of the rule in P+P only allows Raid as well. No probs with the Elutarian / Sullust

- the most current version is here:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/b5ctapnpcla.pdf

Vorchan is a great looking ship

 

[Foxmeister]

Narn cruisers in particular have good all-round firepower.

Ahem....

Whilst the number of AD may look "impressive" on paper, with an 8" range on a lumbering hull, they will seldom ever get used against a good player. On the odd occasion when they do get into range (usually because their opponent screws up! ), being mostly without traits, they don't deliver much anyway.


I'm not sure what scenario you were playing, but "Assault on Ragesh 3" isn't it as this involves a Centauri station vs a couple of T'Loths and some Frazi. However, the Narn fleet given here (4 Dag'Kar, 3 G'Quan) really is a poor general purpose fleet IMHO - 3 G'Quan would generally make most opponents cry, but usually they'd be tears of laughter!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Democratus]

My bad. The mission was Second Battle for Quadrant 14. The Centauri must enter by a short board edge while the Narn occupy the far side near a planet. The Narn mission is to have a single ship left alive after 10 turns.

While the Centauri outnumber the Narn in this mission, I was quite impressed with the carnage wrought as the Cent fleet clawed across 6 feet of board to get to grips with the Narn defenders.