Blue Stars, and how they measure up

[Itkovian]

Well I fielded 3 Bluestars in the Vassal tournament run a while back and found that while they were often hard to kill, they were useful for covering Whitestars against the earth fighter swarm, attacking cripples and possibly making people nervous by getting behind them, but frankly the firepower means they have to come into others secondary range and they don't tend to last too long against the secondaries of Earth or the Abbai, the Minbari are pretty horrible too and as for the Pak and their plasma cannons.
Against the Centauri they can do well as they are very 'Forward centric' in their weaponry so a Bluestar behind them is very nasty.
Can't see the Vree having a problem though.

 

[Stonehorse]

Sorry to bring back an old topic.

Just reading the special ability of the Blue Stars, where they can create a Hyper space Enterance and Exit in the same turn. Would it be able to put an exit in front of an enemy ship, so that when the enemy ship moves it has to enter Hyper space, and then use the exit to allow more of the ISA fleet to arrive?

If it can do that, it is a nasty little bugger.

 

[katadder]

space is 3d, plus you dont have to go through a JP cos its in front of you.

 

[Stonehorse]

space is 3d, plus you dont have to go through a JP cos its in front of you.

It is, but I was thinking maybe the 'pull' of the enterance would be enough to pull any near by ships. Plus if ACTA was played as a 3D game it would get very complex.

Edit.
Just found the answer to my question, only friendly ships and flights can enter the hyperspace enterance when it is made... makes sense.

 

[thehod]

The biggest complaint is the ease of Skindancing for the Bluestars thats the major beef with some of the gamers in this area.

 

[Zeru]

I see skin-dancing as inefficient, it gets Blue Stars killed 50% of the time, and takes them out alot earlier then they would otherwise.

 

[Voronesh]

True, but Skin dancing is perfect for any type of "star" who is barely alive. You do get a nice missle out of your ship ^^. And it even goes off in the movement phase.

(Unless that was changed 2nd as i have not got my book yet)

 

[Zeru]

Heheh, I would rather make them waste the shot on the Blue Star, unless the Blue Star just did not have a gun left :lol:

 

[Skipper]

The answer to a swarm of bluestars in your rear arc is usually to split fire. Spred your shots out amonst the pack and if you get two-three shots on a blue star you have a decent chance of inflicting damage against the hord. The adaptive armor is pretty much useless if they take a single hit, it still rounds down to 1 damage. If you have more than one gun in an arc, it can be even nastier as each on will inflict a damage most likely and in a single turn the bluestar is already just slightly above half damage.

While not a prefect defense, it'll take a turn or two before they evaporate, you'd be surprised at how worried that player with adaptive armour looks when he suddenly realizes that almost every blue star he owns now has accumulating damage.

If you have overlapping arcs or fire from additonal ships, this tactic will really give them fits. Of course this may all have changed with 2nd edition. I used to use this tactic against whitestars, especially when I was running a squadron of 3 chronos frigates.

 

[Zeru]

The only problem with that is Dodge, with a Blue Star's 3+ Dodge, it is actually quite unlikely for a shot to get through, you would have to spend 5-6 shots on a Blue Star just to make a hit likely, and not many ships can afford to do that.

Although I do like your idea alot 8)

 

[Iron Knight]

Don't they have Self-Repair 1? I have not had much luck spliting fire but focusing on one seemed to work.

 

[Skipper]

I usually don't destroy the little buggers, I just decrew them. Same opverall effect.

 

[Zeru]

True enough, in all honest there are alot of other Patrol boats out there with equal or greater firepower, it is just the toughness that makes the Blue Stars seem superior.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

someones maxed their ISA fleet out on blues for our leuge, i will post here and state how theyve dun (hes a double glouster player)

 

[Locutus9956]

Firstly: I will have to check when I get home if they changed it in 2nd Ed but is it not 6 bluestars for 2 raid points rather than 8?!?! You dont just double the number of ships as you go down a point! Otherwise that really WOULD be disgusting!

Secondly: Counters to the bluestar swarm...

1) Emines. Ok not everyone has access to this of course but without their dodge, bluestars get ripped to shreds in seconds. Adaptive armour does help of course but your still talking effectively 10 points of damage to death. A big emine volley, especially against hull 4 ships, should clear them out more or less instantly! Of course sensible ISA player will spread out as much as possible and use jump tactics to try and avoiding being emined but theres only so much you can do to avoid them!

2) Accurate Weapons: This mainly applies to the drakh (and ironically other ISA fleets) but other races do have access to them too, the Centauri Liati for example, the Shadow Scout for another or AE anti-fighter missiles (if theyre still available, havent really checked the missile varients in 2nd ed I admit!). Again the key is without their dodge, it only takes 10 points of damage to kill a bluestar and on a hull 4 target thats really not alot!

3) Fighters: Nibble them to death. Now I've heard this countered with the 'one bluestar can cover another', or they can outrun the fighter and this is indeed true, and if its JUST fighters and bluestars then I would say the bluestars can indeed either outrun them or cover them each other, but if you simply keep your fighters near your ships then the bluestars must stop within 8" of those ships to attack and the fighters move AFTER them so can pretty much ALWAYS jump behind them and attack. Ok if they come in in a conga line with 8" spacing then it can be nigh on impossible for your fighters to get behind the back one so they WILL get shot but the real thing here is thats STILL meaning the bluestars are busy trying to deal with fighters buying you lots more time to fire on them with your ships! Now assuming you actually DO attack them with fighters, the key here is that adaptive armour rounds to a minimum of 1. Chances are most fighters wont score more than 1 point of damage especially factoring in dodge, but if they do their damage one point at a time then the bluestar is getting no beneift whatsoever from its adaptive armour. 5 seperate 1 point hits from fighters will kill a bluestar. Now with a 3+ dodge thats basically going to take 15 hits effectively but thats not that hard for most of fighters when your shooting at a hull 4 target! Even over several turns with self repair you still only need 6 hits as the bluestar crew are then dead! (and bear in mind once you get to 4 hull or 5 crew its thresholded and ALOT less effective...)

4) The 'firing line': Bluestar swarms may take a relatively large amount of firepower to wipe out without an special tricks but if you play around with them you'll find they really dont last long when people start firing big batteries at them. Hull 4 is not the death sentence it used to be vs beam fleets but its still means against most fleets main guns your goint to take an abosulte HAMMERING and on average a 1/3 of all those hits will get past your dodge. Again 30 hits may sound alot but but once you factor in crits and the like its really not hard to toast them!

I've only used bluestars in a battle once actually and they did prove useful (and Ill definitely use em again) but they did all die in the end . The simple fact most people overlook is that in order for bluestars to actually attack they have to close to a range that for most ships means they can open fire with ALL their secondary weapons and even do so while still engaging bigger targets with their larger weapons. Bluesatars ARE nasty but they are still not such a massive threat that you have to take them out in a huge hurry over other targets like whitestars, Victories and the like....

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I usually don't destroy the little buggers, I just decrew them. Same opverall effect.

Then board for extra VPs...

 

[Locutus9956]

Also looking at Liati vs Bluestars. Assuming they all move into firing range of each other at the same time (odds are they will given both sides relative engagement ranges and maneuvering capabilities) I would say the Liatis opening volley will most likely destroy 2 or 3 bluestars if maybe even 4 if its lucky (but this is risky as splitting fire onto 4 could backfire and end up not quite finnishing off ANY of them....). Also consider you have 2 flights of Rutarians to help finish off any bluestar that doesnt QUITE die... Now Ill have to check if theyve changed the PL system in a silly way to make swarms bigger but assuming 6 Bluestars arrayed against the Liati:

Turn one Both sides deploy at long range, bluestar with one flight of Rutarians out. Both doesnt really matter who wins initiatiative as both sides will close but Id wager that the bluestars will advance a bit and the Liati will try to get as into its out edge firing range and luanch its other flight of Rutarians. After turn 1 Id expect all the bluestars to be out of range and the Liati to be within 18" firing range with its beams of one or two bluestars but not the rest if it won initiatitve but fully out of range if it didnt. If the Liati won initiative Id expect its beams to damage, maybe kill, a single bluestar but short of lucky crits Id expect the target to survive.

Turn 2 Id expect all the bluestars to close to firing range. The Liati will all stop if necessary but will make sure the blue stars cant overshoot it and get behind it (at least most of them). The Rutarians will then move behind the rear bluesatrs. If we say the ISA won initiative we can have it so that one bluestar will fire, doing a few points of damage (but not anything major), the Liati will then split its fire over 3 bluestars and Id tend to suspect it would kill all 3. If it got a shot off on turn 1 then that should be one of the targets (if its still there and wasnt the first bluestar to fire). The other 2 targets should be the ones with Rutarians parked behind them, in case they dont QUITE die. However Id suspect thats probably unnecessary. The Liati has got 16AD of double damage accurate firepower. half of that will hit a blue star on a 2+ and the rest on a 4. Id guess about 10-12 of those AD will hit, theyre all acurate so no dodges allowed and double damage will translate that to, discounting crits and bulkheads, about 20-24 points of damage. Add in another salovo from the beams and rutarians to polish off and your going to be looking at 3 dead bluestars. One of them may get a shot off before the rutarians finish it off but you still looking at a total return fire of probably only 3 or 4 of the original 6, which is certainly going to but a dent in the Liati but Id estimate only to about half way down its hull, barring lucky crits.

Next onwards its going to be a twisting dogfight essentially. If the Centauri win initiative that will genearlly mean the first bluestar to move, seing as it wont get to fire anyway will overshoot with all power to engines and thus the Liati wont get a forward arc shot, but Id still say it would with its turret guns and fighters toast another bluestar resulting in only one of them getting to fire back now, even if the ISA win initiative, 2 bluestars will return fire but probably STILL not finish the Liati off.

At this point (turn 3 or 4 depending how quickly the two fleets engaged) were most likely looking at a Liati about 2/3 damage facing off with 2 either undamaged or maybe slightly scorched bluestars (down a point or two) If the centauri win initiative any turn and the bluestars dont both run for it the one that can line its shot up will more than likely die before it can fire, and on a turn the ISA win initiative one will die and the other will get its shot off, basically, any way you look at it, from this point the ISA are going to get one bluestars volley off max before its finally finished off (again this isnt set in stone but its likely).

So overall Id say a single Liati IS capable of taking down 6 bluestars. If the PL system has changed and youd get 8 though then I would have to agree its dead but if the PL system has changed and you get 8 then that in my eyes is making things too much in favour of swarms sadly

 

[Voronesh]

Yes i realized that a single T'Rann can take out largs numbers of Blue Stars. War lvl like damage and 8 Frazis, little chance for the Blue Star (Now lets not shorten it like the WS ^^) to survive that ship even though it does not possess a Energy mine.

Locutus9956 has the fighter nargument covered really well. Since fighters move last, Blue Stars have to do some crazy positioning to actually destroy those fighters, but then they are doing absolutely nothing against their primary target, and even then it is unlikely that the fighters die too quickly.

And Lord David did say that boarding decrewed Blue Stars is a good option for those ships that did not get killed outright

 

[Zeru]

With the new system, their would be 8 Blue Stars per Liati at a 2 point raid level (which most people seem to employ from my experience), and I agree, the Liata would probably kill around 3 Blue Stars when they enter range.

But it is quite unlikely that the Liati (with its mighty 26 Damage) would like getting shot at by 5 (if it won intiative and rolled well) to 6 (If it lost intiative, but still rolled well) Blue Stars, thats a potential 40 damage from the Blue Stars without factoring in criticals, so the Liati has indeed scored its kills, but was killed by the return fire, and the Blue Stars would have an easy time mopping up the 2 fighters afterwards.

That is not even counting in if the Blue Stars use "Concentrate All Firepower!"

The Liati is GREAT at killing White Stars though.

E-Mines are great, and so are Accurate weapons; for those who have them.

The gun-line would probably work, but the Blue Stars have an amazingly good chance at getting by this line, considering their toughness.

The Fighter swarm seems to be the most effective tactic I have seen so far, short of Accurate weapons and E-mines.

I have a quick question though;

Can you use Jump Point whenever you want? Barring Scenario not allowing it? If so; can a Fleet jump into hyper-space first turn, and then come back out on the second turn to close with the enemy? Or maybe even leave a scout on the Table so they can reenter the second turn and dust their targets?

I ask this mainly because the Gaim eat me for lunch, and the thought of getting eaten by bugs all the time is not appealing.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Seems to me that you can only jump once now, so you either jump in from hyperspace or jump out to escape to hyperspace. Blue Star can do both, but as I understand it, once you jump out you can't jump back in either if you have a gate or another ship with working drives to open a jump point for you. Even Shadows can't come in and out of hyperspace multiple times in a game.