Armageddon for the Dilgar

[Black Omega]

Most races don't need new stuff, doesn't stop them getting new ships.

And I'm not against giving Dilgar new ships. As long as it's appropriate. Armageddon level ships just are too powerfull for them to have existed for Dilgar at that time(heck even war is pushing it). They would have been unstoppable rather than destroyed to extinction.

*sigh* As has been said by myself and several others on here Armageddon level ships are not inappropriate for the Dilgar if they take the form of a couple of experimental prototype ships. No one is suggesting these ships would have been common place, even if they were its pretty unlikely you would ever take more than 1 armageddon level ship in a game so the actual game mechanic would fit with the fluff. Think of them the same way shadow-omegas are in the EA lists.

Basically what you're saying is that the Narn, Centauri, Minbari and EA should never get another ship.

If I would then I wouldn't be so eager to see new appropriate ships yet I am.

You might want to read what I say rather than giving random responses.

Alex, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Seriously dude read back over what people are saying before coming off with your own random comments. And i'm not just talking about thePirv, listen to what Burger and others are telling you also.

 

[thePirv]

1 Dilgar armageddon level ship.
20 EA Nova.
Who will win?

Why you think 1 dilgar armageddon level ship would go toe to toe alone against 20 EA nova?

He doesn't, none of us do. Not in game terms certainly. He's saying that even if the Dilgar had Arma level ships, the EA would've still won through sheer weight of numbers.

Armageddon does not mean AJP, Flight Computer and all that, it's simply a way of representing a ship that is worth more than a War ship, which it's totally possible for the Dilgar to have Built. It doesn't need to be a technological super monster like the rest of the Arma ships, in fact, it definitely shouldn't be, it should simply ne a BIG Dilgar ship with even more guns thrown on and way more powerful than a Mankhat, but just not quite as good as 2 of them.

 

[Black Omega]

I'm not a Dilgar player myself and i don't have an axe to grind so far as what the dilgar do and don't get. But i can understand where tenaciousB and thepirv and the others are coming from. The dilgar don't "need" an armageddon level ship but so long as they are being created for other races it would be nice to have the option of taking one if you wanted to.

Personally, as an EA player i'd like to go up against a 2pt armageddon dilgar fleet with an armageddon lvl ship and another armageddon points worth of ships against a whole array of my lower valued EA ships, just to see how it would play out

 

[Davesaint]

1 Dilgar armageddon level ship.
20 EA Nova.
Who will win?

Why you think 1 dilgar armageddon level ship would go toe to toe alone against 20 EA nova?

He doesn't, none of us do. Not in game terms certainly. He's saying that even if the Dilgar had Arma level ships, the EA would've still won through sheer weight of numbers.

Armageddon does not mean AJP, Flight Computer and all that, it's simply a way of representing a ship that is worth more than a War ship, which it's totally possible for the Dilgar to have Built. It doesn't need to be a technological super monster like the rest of the Arma ships, in fact, it definitely shouldn't be, it should simply ne a BIG Dilgar ship with even more guns thrown on and way more powerful than a Mankhat, but just not quite as good as 2 of them.

ThePriv,

Listen to your argument. Take a look at the Armageddon level ships. The ships aren't worth it. Frankly speaking right now I have 2 Victory Class ships that came with my ISA box set that are essentially paper weights because the random priority level chart was not changed in Armageddon. Thus, I will almost never get a chance to field them even if they were worth the points. In most instances, and especially with the Dilgar, you are much better off fielding lower PL ships and pentaconing them. A 6 ship pentacon of Targraths will be more powerful than any Armageddon level ship you could field, especially if you are able to CAF your Armageddon level opponent.

Dave

 

[Black Omega]

I think most people wouldn't take notice if I carved it into their retinas with a blunt potato...

Probably not but can we at least watch you try it out?

 

[Burger]

Frankly speaking right now I have 2 Victory Class ships that came with my ISA box set that are essentially paper weights because the random priority level chart was not changed in Armageddon. Thus, I will almost never get a chance to field them even if they were worth the points.

I'm going to use one of my Vic's next week I reckon I've a good chance of winning, too.

 

[Alexb83]

Alex, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Seriously dude read back over what people are saying before coming off with your own random comments. And i'm not just talking about thePirv, listen to what Burger and others are telling you also.

Argh, the momentary confusion. Alex is far too common a name...

 

[Davesaint]

Frankly speaking right now I have 2 Victory Class ships that came with my ISA box set that are essentially paper weights because the random priority level chart was not changed in Armageddon. Thus, I will almost never get a chance to field them even if they were worth the points.

I'm going to use one of my Vic's next week I reckon I've a good chance of winning, too.

Having seen your campaign list, I am not suprised.

Here's my campaign list - SFOS Victory. WS2 has 4+ Dodge and Hull 6, WS Has 4+ Dodge and 5 Pulsars. All Molecular Pulsars have had precise removed.

Victory
2 WS-2
15 WS
Leshath
3 Vaarka
2 Vaarl
Xill
Tinashi
2 Wings of T-Bolts

We are on Turn 7 of the campaign I am in. The Victory has yet to be fielded in a battle. I have only fielded 1 WS2. The Tinashi was just built this turn and is not available until turn 8.


Dave

 

[Burger]

How come you have wayyy more than 1 battle point of Allies?

 

[thePirv]

OK, I'm going to say it again, just in case anybody missed it the two previous times.

Dilgar aren't getting Arma level ships. We know this. Matt already said so. But, he also said that Dilgar would get new ships in upcoming S&P. This hasn't happened yet. We simply want to know where these promised ships are, especially since the Drazi who were supported in Armageddon are getting new ships and the EA got the new Tiger Starfury, despite lots of coverage (wether you think it was good or bad) in Armageddon.


For some reason people keep arguing that the Dilgar can't or shouldn't get Arma level ships. This argument is pointless because they aren't geting one. But people don't want to give up on telling us why the Dilgar can't have one. If you wanna keep telling us why they can't, we'll keep saying why they can. It's a totally superfluous argument that's totally beside the point, but it's not going to stop.

 

[Alexb83]

Armageddon level is not a "tech" level. It is simply an artificial structure to balance the power of ships against ech other.


(for the 3,000th time)

Maybe you oughta make that part of your sig ffs. Then people might actually take notice lol

I think most people wouldn't take notice if I carved it into their retinas with a blunt potato...

I would have to say it's a bit of both, blunt potato or not. The Armageddon PL is hardly internally balanced, let alone balanced against the lower PLs, as you point out in your Arma vs. 20 Novas example.

To quote the Armageddon book itself: "The Crusade Era brought a rush of technologies for all races who joined the Interstellar Alliance... From the powerful Narn Ka'Bin'Tak to a re-jigged Victory, you will find a host of new ships to take advantage of the new Armageddon Priority Level".

The 'Armageddon' level may quite clearly be an internal balance mechanism for the PL system - but its intent at least in part seems to be an effort to represent the more advanced ships of the Crusade Era, and those of the Ancients.

 

[Davesaint]

How come you have wayyy more than 1 battle point of Allies?

I have been building them. The restriction that I am under is that I can't field more than 1 FAP of Allies in any given battle. My original fleet had 1 Leshath and 2 Vaarl.


Dave

 

[Burger]

How come you have wayyy more than 1 battle point of Allies?

I have been building them. The restriction that I am under is that I can't field more than 1 FAP of Allies in any given battle. My original fleet had 1 Leshath and 2 Vaarl.

Ah OK, non-standard campaign rules, heavily boosting the ISA's Allies rule...

 

[Burger]

To quote the Armageddon book itself: "The Crusade Era brought a rush of technologies for all races who joined the Interstellar Alliance... From the powerful Narn Ka'Bin'Tak to a re-jigged Victory, you will find a host of new ships to take advantage of the new Armageddon Priority Level".

Yes a fair number of the Crusade-era ships use Armageddon level, but that doesn't mean the Armageddon level only has crusade-era ships in it. Where does it say that it does?

 

[Davesaint]

OK, I'm going to say it again, just in case anybody missed it the two previous times.

Dilgar aren't getting Arma level ships. We know this. Matt already said so. But, he also said that Dilgar would get new ships in upcoming S&P. This hasn't happened yet. We simply want to know where these promised ships are, especially since the Drazi who were supported in Armageddon are getting new ships and the EA got the new Tiger Starfury, despite lots of coverage (wether you think it was good or bad) in Armageddon.


For some reason people keep arguing that the Dilgar can't or shouldn't get Arma level ships. This argument is pointless because they aren't geting one. But people don't want to give up on telling us why the Dilgar can't have one. If you wanna keep telling us why they can't, we'll keep saying why they can. It's a totally superfluous argument that's totally beside the point, but it's not going to stop.

ThePriv,

Once again, I have not said you shouldn't have one, I have been saying WTF would you want one? You have great ships at skirmish, raid, and battle. You have a patrol level scout. A couple of good varients off of the Targrath and either the Omelos or the Ochlivida and a fix of the Garasoch, and you wont ever feel the need to field a big, slow, low crew, not enough firepower ship.

Think about other things you could ask for with your Dilgar, like better carriers, a larger beam armed ship and ask for those. They will help you more in the long run.

The Dilgar are one of the nastiest races out there if flown properly. They don't need a "super Mankhat" or a "super Mishikur"

Dave

 

[Davesaint]

How come you have wayyy more than 1 battle point of Allies?

I have been building them. The restriction that I am under is that I can't field more than 1 FAP of Allies in any given battle. My original fleet had 1 Leshath and 2 Vaarl.

Ah OK, non-standard campaign rules, heavily boosting the ISA's Allies rule...

I played using the very restrictive ISA rules in my last campaign, and I had a lot of people telling me that they were tired of always fighting against whitestars. My response was let me have more than 1 FAP of allies on my fleet list, and I will build other stuff. Besides, the restriction should really be on what you can field on the table top, not for what your fleet list is anyway.

I got to fight a patrol level blockade run on Turn 6. I could only field 1 Vaarl. Kind of wierd.

Dave

 

[Burger]

OK, I'm going to say it again, just in case anybody missed it the three previous times.

Dilgar aren't getting Arma level ships. We know this. Matt already said so. But, he also said that Dilgar would get new ships in upcoming S&P. This hasn't happened yet. We simply want to know where these promised ships are, especially since the Drazi who were supported in Armageddon are getting new ships and the EA got the new Tiger Starfury, despite lots of coverage (wether you think it was good or bad) in Armageddon.

He doesn't want an Armageddon Dilgar ship, dude!

 

[thePirv]

ThePriv,

Once again, I have not said you shouldn't have one, I have been saying WTF would you want one? You have great ships at skirmish, raid, and battle. You have a patrol level scout. A couple of good varients off of the Targrath and either the Omelos or the Ochlivida and a fix of the Garasoch, and you wont ever feel the need to field a big, slow, low crew, not enough firepower ship.

Think about other things you could ask for with your Dilgar, like better carriers, a larger beam armed ship and ask for those. They will help you more in the long run.

The Dilgar are one of the nastiest races out there if flown properly. They don't need a "super Mankhat" or a "super Mishikur"

Dave

I'm not even a Dilgar player. Have played as them once and got my ass kicked. I'm simply worried that the Dilgar being unsupported leaves a dangerous precedent that all races not in the main book (such as Drakh that i do play, in fact i pretty much exclusively play Drakh) will be left unsupported.
I still feel the Drakh and Dilgar should've been included in Armageddon in some form, but hey, they need time to bed in.

I just think that if an entirely new mechanic is introduced into a game, such as a totally new priority level, then it would be nice if all the fans were catered to, instead of being left out in the cold as it were.
No, the Dilgar don't need an Arma ship, especially since don't think i've ever managed to beat a Dilgar fleet, but i'm sure anybody that plays Dilgar would like the option to field an Arma level ship, should insanity ever grasp them.
I know i'd sure as hell like to get a Drakh Arma level ship, and i know TenaciousB would love a Dilgar Arma level ship.

 

[TenaciousB]

I'm not even a Dilgar player. Have played as them once and got my ass kicked. I'm simply worried that the Dilgar being unsupported leaves a dangerous precedent that all races not in the main book (such as Drakh that i do play, in fact i pretty much exclusively play Drakh) will be left unsupported.
I still feel the Drakh and Dilgar should've been included in Armageddon in some form, but hey, they need time to bed in.

I just think that if an entirely new mechanic is introduced into a game, such as a totally new priority level, then it would be nice if all the fans were catered to, instead of being left out in the cold as it were.
No, the Dilgar don't need an Arma ship, especially since don't think i've ever managed to beat a Dilgar fleet, but i'm sure anybody that plays Dilgar would like the option to field an Arma level ship, should insanity ever grasp them.
I know i'd sure as hell like to get a Drakh Arma level ship, and i know TenaciousB would love a Dilgar Arma level ship.

I am a Dilgar player, and I don't care if I have been told by Matt that I'm not getting an Armageddon ship - I still want one. I think it would be interesting to play battles with it, even though most people say the Armageddon ships that already exist are pants. I also would like the opportunity to own one, paint it up, and have it as a figurehead on my shelf for my ever-expanding Dilgar army.

People say this argument is pointless. I don't. I love the Dilgar, and I want, nay, DEMAND proper and full support of them. Any new Dilgar ship(s) statted-up and/or produced my Mongoose will be met with praise from me. Armageddon would be nice as well!

If other people can crusade to get what they want, so can I.

Read the sig if you don't believe me.

 

[Alexb83]

To quote the Armageddon book itself: "The Crusade Era brought a rush of technologies for all races who joined the Interstellar Alliance... From the powerful Narn Ka'Bin'Tak to a re-jigged Victory, you will find a host of new ships to take advantage of the new Armageddon Priority Level".

Yes a fair number of the Crusade-era ships use Armageddon level, but that doesn't mean the Armageddon level only has crusade-era ships in it. Where does it say that it does?

I never said that it did, what I did say was:

"its intent at least in part seems to be an effort to represent the more advanced ships of the Crusade Era, and those of the Ancients."