Armageddon for the Dilgar
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Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
Banks of 12AD, Double damage AP aren't enough for you?
Seriously, even if it fitted the background, there simply aren't many more ways for the Dilgar to develop. Their huge buckets of medium- lethality dice on moderately survivable, seriously fast hulls are already a pretty effective solution to most problems. Smaller numbers of individually more capable dice rather than simply more of the same, and that means inventing new systems.
On the other hand, here's one I perpetrated earlier...
Dilgar Tuvathrakur Superdreadnought, PL Armageddon
Speed 8, turn 2/45, Jump Point, Shuttles 3, Command +2
Hull 6, damage 76/8, crew 84/10, troops 12, 4 Thorun flights
Heavy Bolters- range 15, Double damage AP, 10AD F, 6AD P,S,A
Quad Pulsars- range 10, twin linked, 8AD each F,A,P,S
Pulsar Stream Cannon- range 30, Double damage twin linked, 6AD F,A,P,S
Superheavy Bolter- range 20, F, 12AD, Super AP Triple damage (crits resolved as two double damage, rather than x4)
Scatter pulsars- range 8, T, 8AD, anti- fighter
I've been disappointed with the stats I've seen so far. 'Armageddon' should mean something, ships that are genuinely terrifying, sufficiently superior to be the centre-points of a fleet, ships that could single- handedly take on and eliminate a conventional battle squadron. That was the benchmark I was aiming at. Overdone, or nicely nasty?
Seriously, even if it fitted the background, there simply aren't many more ways for the Dilgar to develop. Their huge buckets of medium- lethality dice on moderately survivable, seriously fast hulls are already a pretty effective solution to most problems. Smaller numbers of individually more capable dice rather than simply more of the same, and that means inventing new systems.
On the other hand, here's one I perpetrated earlier...
Dilgar Tuvathrakur Superdreadnought, PL Armageddon
Speed 8, turn 2/45, Jump Point, Shuttles 3, Command +2
Hull 6, damage 76/8, crew 84/10, troops 12, 4 Thorun flights
Heavy Bolters- range 15, Double damage AP, 10AD F, 6AD P,S,A
Quad Pulsars- range 10, twin linked, 8AD each F,A,P,S
Pulsar Stream Cannon- range 30, Double damage twin linked, 6AD F,A,P,S
Superheavy Bolter- range 20, F, 12AD, Super AP Triple damage (crits resolved as two double damage, rather than x4)
Scatter pulsars- range 8, T, 8AD, anti- fighter
I've been disappointed with the stats I've seen so far. 'Armageddon' should mean something, ships that are genuinely terrifying, sufficiently superior to be the centre-points of a fleet, ships that could single- handedly take on and eliminate a conventional battle squadron. That was the benchmark I was aiming at. Overdone, or nicely nasty?
I couldn't ever really see the Dilgar having an Armageddon level ship - if their ships could be defeated by Earth Raid-level ships, then they couldn't have been that good, as we know the Dilgar had loads of ships from the Dilgar Imperium book. So I just couldn't accept it really.
that is the problem with the upgrades the Dilgar got to stay competitive.
Crusade era stuff or Minbari should be able to give Dilgar a run for their money within a single turn. Yet it doesnt happen.
Dilgar got a huge boost on their actual abilities (Background fluff versus playability). In reality the DIlgar fleet should maybe have a battle choice, compare do stuff like 3rd age EA and Centauri.
Crusade era stuff or Minbari should be able to give Dilgar a run for their money within a single turn. Yet it doesnt happen.
Dilgar got a huge boost on their actual abilities (Background fluff versus playability). In reality the DIlgar fleet should maybe have a battle choice, compare do stuff like 3rd age EA and Centauri.
TenaciousB
Mongoose
Reborn said:
I disagree - why should the Dilgar get left out of the Armageddon goodness? All the other races seem to be getting some nice and shiny stuff - why should a long-extinct race be left behind? :lol:
From the fluff about the Tikrit (I think it's the Tikrit - may be another ship I'm thinking of) in the book, it mentions development of another ship - I thought this was deliberately put in by the designers to "leave the door open", so to speak, for further ships.
Plus, the latest issue of Signs and Portents has the Ghosts of Omelos list - by using cloning technology, it seems you can't keep a good Dilgar down....
Well, how about hypothetical ships? You wouldn't need to have the ships be historical, or ever available back in the Dilgar War era. Just have a "What if" section, with possible Dilgar designs from the show or Crusade era if they had survived. I think a few years ago I saw a whole huge fan supplement for B5Wars assuming the Dilgar had conquered half the League and then settled on those worlds, and the EA had never been involved. So there were ship designs for the later eras, plus some other races' alternate designs based on that timeline - if I'm recalling right, the Shadows chose the Dilgar as their pawns, so the Centauri were on the AoL side, but the Narn were allied to the Dilgar against the Centauri, or something like that.
At worst someone could do that unofficially again for ACTA, but I don't see why there couldn't be at least a page or two of official stuff for Armageddon of hypothetical or never-built Dilgar designs. I remember in SFB (which I never played, but with my love of gaming systems I read a lot of the rulebooks for) a lot of their giant super-ships were conjectural within their own universe, planned for but never built.
At worst someone could do that unofficially again for ACTA, but I don't see why there couldn't be at least a page or two of official stuff for Armageddon of hypothetical or never-built Dilgar designs. I remember in SFB (which I never played, but with my love of gaming systems I read a lot of the rulebooks for) a lot of their giant super-ships were conjectural within their own universe, planned for but never built.
However, Even the drakh don't get any armageddon ship. All the fluff says they have clam ships 40 odd kilometres long, that carry cruisers and raiders etc, they are allegedly one of the most advanced races out there. . . and they get squat in armageddon. It wouldn't even be that difficult to make, just give the mothership a higher hull and some decent weapons.
TenaciousB
Mongoose
Yellow Beard hiffano said:
Here, here! Well said, that man!
I thought the whole purpose of this expansion was to EXPAND for every race. Why were the Dilgar and the Drakh excluded from this? I know they are fairly new races to ACTA, but I don't see why they couldn't have got some variants of some sort.
Or is this a marketing ploy to sell another future version of the Dilgar and Drakh books?
Foil hat on standby.....
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Yellow Beard hiffano said:
A command mothership would be an interesting variant. Alternately it could be that the super large vessels are too valauable to risk in combat or aren't armed beyond simple defences
ShadowScout
Mongoose
Ah, yes, an old song... a Dilgar Battleship. I wrote up some stats for my "Vulashkoi" a couple of years ago, during AoG times... and translated them into CtA recently.
Nasty, huh?
It has no MD's, as it is a pure ship-killer (and besides, I don't agree with Mongooses take on these things anyway. IMO MD's should be ground attack weapons only, with an exception for use against space stations, and not ship guns. Besides, considering the MD's size I wouldn't allow a ship to have one unless it's miniature has one!). I renamed the "Disruptor Torps into Plasma Torps as that better fits Dilgar weapon tech IMO. And I have it lasers, since the AoG Dilgar (which had a much better armament sceme IMO) had them. And of course, as it's bigger then the Mishakur, it's also a bit slower. Bad if you let it into range, but it has its weaknesses too...
Code:
Vulashkoi Battleship
Armageddon Priority
Speed: 6 Damage: 80/18 Craft: 5 Thorun Flights
Turn: 1/45° Crew: 90/20 Special Rules: Command +2, Jump Point
Hull: 6 Troops: 8 In Service: 2232 (Prototype)
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Plasma Torpedoes 20 F 8 AP, Double Damage, Slow-Loading
Plasma Torpedoes 20 P 8 AP, Double Damage, Slow-Loading
Plasma Torpedoes 20 S 8 AP, Double Damage, Slow-Loading
Heavy Lasers 25 F 4 Beam, Double Damage, Super AP
Heavy Lasers 25 A 4 Beam, Double Damage, Super AP
Heavy Bolters 20 F 12 AP, Double Damage
Heavy Bolters 20 A 6 AP, Double Damage
Medium Bolters 15 P 8 AP, Double Damage
Medium Bolters 15 S 8 AP, Double Damage
Heavy Pulsars 15 F 12 -
Heavy Pulsars 15 P 12 -
Heavy Pulsars 15 S 12 -
Light Pulsars 8 F 12 -
Light Pulsars 8 A 8 -
Light Pulsars 8 P 8 -
Light Pulsars 8 S 8 -Nasty, huh?
It has no MD's, as it is a pure ship-killer (and besides, I don't agree with Mongooses take on these things anyway. IMO MD's should be ground attack weapons only, with an exception for use against space stations, and not ship guns. Besides, considering the MD's size I wouldn't allow a ship to have one unless it's miniature has one!). I renamed the "Disruptor Torps into Plasma Torps as that better fits Dilgar weapon tech IMO. And I have it lasers, since the AoG Dilgar (which had a much better armament sceme IMO) had them. And of course, as it's bigger then the Mishakur, it's also a bit slower. Bad if you let it into range, but it has its weaknesses too...
Uhh yes, but you can only fire MDs on ships that are dead in space.
Meaning theyre as easy to hit as a space station. Look thaere is that thing that flies at exactly x m/s through space in a straight line. Lets smash it?
Plus how often do you see ships dead in space. Has only happened once to me before. (Ok so i dont have that many games under my belt, but still). Well in theory it is 1 out of twelve crits, but theyre rarer than that. Dreaded luck, otherwise my Narn would have conquered more than a single Vircory by now.
Meaning theyre as easy to hit as a space station. Look thaere is that thing that flies at exactly x m/s through space in a straight line. Lets smash it?
Plus how often do you see ships dead in space. Has only happened once to me before. (Ok so i dont have that many games under my belt, but still). Well in theory it is 1 out of twelve crits, but theyre rarer than that. Dreaded luck, otherwise my Narn would have conquered more than a single Vircory by now.
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
They are one of the most common items on the campaign refit table, and one of the few that are effectively cumulative. I've had an awful lot of Targrath running around with 2 and 4AD mass drivers.
They still aren't much use- the slow loading is actually more of a problem, I reckon, than the immobile target restriction. I'd sooner try to board and get the extra VP; a ship conducting a boarding action can still shoot, just not at the ship it's boarding, is the way I read it- and it's more fun.
The whole idea that Armageddon ships have to be worth about 1.8 to 1.9 a War level- that pretty much means that by definition, they're not worth taking. There should be a slightly disproportionate scaling up of the stats, to counterbalance their increased crit vulnerability and make them worth twice as much- no more, no less, in line with their cost.
As it stands, I haven't seen stats for one yet that aren't the equivalent of pouring three battle points down the drain. (Yes, I know, four. I'd expect to send four Tinashi against a Nemesis and lose one taking it down, or four Apollo against a Neroon.)
If super large vessels like Drakh motherships exist, then they do needed to be statted up- because they would make absolutely vital strategic targets. They would need stats that make them interesting rather than dam' great illstones to deploy, though.
They still aren't much use- the slow loading is actually more of a problem, I reckon, than the immobile target restriction. I'd sooner try to board and get the extra VP; a ship conducting a boarding action can still shoot, just not at the ship it's boarding, is the way I read it- and it's more fun.
The whole idea that Armageddon ships have to be worth about 1.8 to 1.9 a War level- that pretty much means that by definition, they're not worth taking. There should be a slightly disproportionate scaling up of the stats, to counterbalance their increased crit vulnerability and make them worth twice as much- no more, no less, in line with their cost.
As it stands, I haven't seen stats for one yet that aren't the equivalent of pouring three battle points down the drain. (Yes, I know, four. I'd expect to send four Tinashi against a Nemesis and lose one taking it down, or four Apollo against a Neroon.)
If super large vessels like Drakh motherships exist, then they do needed to be statted up- because they would make absolutely vital strategic targets. They would need stats that make them interesting rather than dam' great illstones to deploy, though.
SNJ.
My reasoning is that the war lvl ships would have to be viable still.
Same way with battle versus war. 2 Primus or 1 Octurion. 2 Tinashis or 1 Sharlin. In nearly every case 2 battle choices give you more firepower than 1 war choice.
I know what you mean about the current Arma choices barely being worth 3 battle. 2 Bin'Taks will probably burn down many of the Arma ships.
If Armageddon is worth 4.5 battle choices there would be a flood of them on the battlefield, and MGP would be accused of EElike marketing practices. Making new ships a little bit too good..... BAH.
My reasoning is that the war lvl ships would have to be viable still.
Same way with battle versus war. 2 Primus or 1 Octurion. 2 Tinashis or 1 Sharlin. In nearly every case 2 battle choices give you more firepower than 1 war choice.
I know what you mean about the current Arma choices barely being worth 3 battle. 2 Bin'Taks will probably burn down many of the Arma ships.
If Armageddon is worth 4.5 battle choices there would be a flood of them on the battlefield, and MGP would be accused of EElike marketing practices. Making new ships a little bit too good..... BAH.
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
In an odd sort of way, you have to give Mongoose credit for being masochistic enough to do the opposite;
Games Workshop make- alright, their quality's got spottier lately, but generally pretty damn' good minis, at stupid prices, and get people to buy them by inflating their game stats to the point where they seem worth it.
Mongoose are making bizarrely under- detailed minis, at even more stupid prices, and deterring people from purchasing them with their in game performance.
It is definitely a different business model.
Games Workshop make- alright, their quality's got spottier lately, but generally pretty damn' good minis, at stupid prices, and get people to buy them by inflating their game stats to the point where they seem worth it.
Mongoose are making bizarrely under- detailed minis, at even more stupid prices, and deterring people from purchasing them with their in game performance.
It is definitely a different business model.
