5FW: Why?

Now that I could get behind, but why not equip drone fighters with these hyper missiles?

And it gives another reason to have fighters, to intercept them...

I agree on the drones, but @MongooseMatt said earlier that they wanted people not drones in this sort of thing. That wouldn’t stop me from making robotic drones to do exactly that though. And agreed on fighter to stop them. That’s a win/win.
 
This is what I used.

Let's break this down!

Acceleration due to gravity on Earth (**1G**) is about **9.81 m/s²**, so **6G** would be:

\[
6 \times 9.81 = 58.86 \text{ m/s²}
\]
I used 9g and rounded up to 90m/s2
Now, using the formula for velocity under constant acceleration:

\[
v = u + at
\]
wrong equation, you want the equation for distance moved (displacement) not final velocity.
where:
- \( v \) is the final velocity,
- \( u \) is the initial velocity (**0 m/s** in this case),
- \( a \) is acceleration (**58.86 m/s²**),
- \( t \) is time (**6 minutes = 360 seconds**).

Plugging in the values:

\[
v = 0 + (58.86 \times 360)
wrong time interval, you only have 0.0033 seconds of acceleration before the laser hits, not six minutes.
\]

\[
v = 21,189.6 \text{ m/s}
\]

That's **over 21 km per second!** To put it into perspective, that's **about 76,282 km/h** or nearly **Mach 62**, which is far beyond even the fastest hypersonic speeds achieved by aircraft or spacecraft.

Hope that helps! Imagine the sheer force you'd experience at that acceleration. 😲
Apart from the wrong equation and the wrong time period...
21km/s in one second. x 0.0032 seconds = 67.8 Kilometers travelled.

Help Me out here. What did I do wrong?
You have used the wrong suvat equation and an incorrect time interval.
 
Sorry, I thought we were going to segue into a stealth-in-space-heat-sink problem discussion here... but (I shouldn't encourage Sigtrygg...) never mind.
Please, take my idea for a gravitic heat sink and use it, get it put into canon, I don't want royalties or even credit, I just want a gravitic heat sink option so we can have stealth in space - to a limited extent, no cloaking devices (yet).
 
I agree on the drones, but @MongooseMatt said earlier that they wanted people not drones in this sort of thing. That wouldn’t stop me from making robotic drones to do exactly that though. And agreed on fighter to stop them. That’s a win/win.
I think the likelyhood would be:

a squadron for extending the sensor net

a squadron to act as oversight for the drones and missiles

a squadron to intercept enemy fighters, drones and missiles

a squadron with intermediate weapons to threaten escort class vessels sent to take out fighters.

The hypermissile needs to be very fat, very expensive, and have a warhead that is going to make the large ship take notice.

I could see that sort of thing in the Third Imperium.

I would like to see all options in a core rulebook and High Guard, but MgT appears to be changing core rules to be Third Imperium specific.

(have I mentioned Culture drones displacing themselves inside enemy warships...)
 
I think the likelyhood would be:

a squadron for extending the sensor net

a squadron to act as oversight for the drones and missiles

a squadron to intercept enemy fighters, drones and missiles

a squadron with intermediate weapons to threaten escort class vessels sent to take out fighters.

The hypermissile needs to be very fat, very expensive, and have a warhead that is going to make the large ship take notice.

I could see that sort of thing in the Third Imperium.

I would like to see all options in a core rulebook and High Guard, but MgT appears to be changing core rules to be Third Imperium specific.

(have I mentioned Culture drones displacing themselves inside enemy warships...)
Culture drones? No. What are they?
 
Culture drones? No. What are they?
Iain M Banks Culture novels - I have a Traveller game set within. The tech is way beyond Third Imperium capabilites, displacement fields/projectors are basically short range teleporters so a drone can teleport itself into a ship...
I will shut up now to avoid thread drift.
 
I’m making suggestions to deal with the fact that fighters are part of the game. You might wish them gone, but they aren’t.

Your suggestions make sense logically but won’t excite the players. They want pew pew. Within the bounds of viable pew pew, something like what I suggested would work. If that’s not your bag, Expanse it.
Why would they not excite the players? Do you think that playing fighter pilots in fleet battles is a core activity of the game? Or do they just need to be able to fly their fighters against 400 ton pirates (or merchants!) and be happy?

In player scale conflicts, fighter are already much of what we want. They are faster than most adventure class ships. They have weapons that will harm most civilian and para-military vessels.

Maybe there are lots of players whose fantasy is to be one of the 300 fighters launching from a carrier, but I don't think so.
 
Please, take my idea for a gravitic heat sink and use it, get it put into canon, I don't want royalties or even credit, I just want a gravitic heat sink option so we can have stealth in space - to a limited extent, no cloaking devices (yet).
The Third Imperium can't develop cloaking devices, have to wait till some daring adventurer sneaks aboard an alien ship disguised as one of those aliens and steals their cloaking device and have some whiz bang engineer player make it work with your ships systems.
 
I used 9g and rounded up to 90m/s2

wrong equation, you want the equation for distance moved (displacement) not final velocity.
Final Velocity is important as once that ship has had the opportunity to take it's turn, it has moved 6-minutes-worth of acceleration.
wrong time interval, you only have 0.0033 seconds of acceleration before the laser hits, not six minutes.
You only have 0.0033 seconds of acceleration before the laser hits, from the time of firing, but from the time you started taking your turn to fire, the ship has moved 6-minutes-worth of acceleration. While you are aiming and trying to "lock-on" to the target, it has moved for 6 minutes. It is 6 minutes of acceleration away, 21 kilometers/second, from where you first started trying to shoot at it. Once the weapon has actually fired, you are right, it only takes 0.0033 seconds to reach it's target. In that 0.0033 seconds, it moves 0.194 kilometers or 194 meters. How did you get millimeters?

That is also assuming that the ship is not moving to begin with. If it is, then it is way worse. If the ship is already moving at 300,000km/s at the start of the round it will be moving at 321,190km/s at the end of the round. In 0.0033 seconds, it would have moved roughly, 1,060 kilometers in 0.0033 seconds.

Pretty sure missing something traveling 1,000 kilometers in the time it takes My beam of light to get there is not small potatoes.
 
From a gaming perspective, we do need to roll the players into this. If fighters have no realistic chance of doing anything to enemy ships, then there will be no interest in them and grousing about how nerfed they are.

How about saying vessels smaller than 100 tons moving at greater than 6Gs are more difficult to hit? Maybe they carry munitions that are armor piercing (already a thing in smaller weapons) that must be fired at close distances because they have massive acceleration but only for that very short burst and then burn out. Thus, a reason for larger ships to fear them but not something potent enough to upset the battle on grander scales. It would mean fighters once again have a purpose and a real role to play.

That might not satisfy those that argue that fighters are doomed to be swept into the dustbin of history but it keeps them viable for the game and adds a twist that unnerfs them while not making them all powerful.

It even makes it like fighters were in WWII. They’d have to get through incoming fire to take their shot. A hit might do little but it could, if lucky, cripple a big ship. That gives a reason why fighters would be relevant and why pilots would line up to sever.

This is a dangerous path.

It's the path of creating an arbitrary rule for a particular metagame effect, like making fighters viable so players who want to play fighter pilots attacking much larger ships can do that. Then this arbitrary rule has follow on effects that affect other things in the game, and at the absolute very least create unexplainable inconsistencies. These inconsistencies need more arbitrary rules to paper over the problems created by the first arbitrary rule, and this continues until there's a mess of greater or lesser complexity.

Even if fighters would made viable with arbitrary rules like special fighter agility, opponents would adapt by developing better point defense weapons, autonomous drones, and their own fighters... unless everyone's stupid and keeps making turbolaser turrets that can't track fast enough to defend themselves against snub fighters, and they don't launch missiles, and they don't launch their own fighters as soon as enemy fighters show up on sensors, all this despite being TL 12 to 15. And even then if fighters have special agility, so would missiles. Missile would outmatch fighter agility the same way fighters outmatch the agility of larger ships. And missiles aren't stupid. They're not going to crash into each other, or crash into things, because of fighter pilot does a spin or whatever.

I think a better way to do this is to build the best fighter one can according to the rules, and then ask in what situations would such craft be useful?
  • Planetary invasions and other planetary operations.
  • Ground attack, like bombing or attacking enemy troops and installations while the main ships attack the starport or other hardened targets.
  • Actions against vacc suited troops in space
  • Reconnaissance
  • Search and rescue.
  • The fast movement of personnel to other ships in a fleet or to worlds.
  • Minelaying or deploying autonomous weapons systems
  • Attacking unarmored or lightly armored starships, like enemy troop carriers or support ships.
  • Attacking starships with missiles from stand off distances, effectively functioning like extra missile turrets.
  • Point defense against drones or missiles.
  • Escorting and providing fire support for battledress marines or troop carriers.
  • Engaging enemy fighters engaged in any of the above missions.

WW2 carrier aircraft operations aren't a good template for this kind of character-focused gameplay. Carrier aircraft operated in groups of 30 to 90, and they took a lot of losses. The carrier based aircraft that were effective against surface ships were dive bombers and torpedo bombers rather than fighters.

Fighters attacking ships with missiles is probably the only viable role fighters would have in engagements with larger ships.

This kind of gameplay would push characters into group scenarios, like naval operations, etc. I guess a small pocket carrier or a patrol vessel with a complement of 5 to 10 fighters might be a good way to do this.

People only think of fighters as effective against large ships because of movies and shows, which throw sense out the window in favor of drama and story technique.

I prefer the method of looking at the rules, seeing the 'realities' they create, and then adapting the setting. To do otherwise is to throw out whatever sense, logic, cause and effect, or assumptions impartial application of the rules create, and just have a narrative driven story game.
 
Final Velocity is important as once that ship has had the opportunity to take it's turn, it has moved 6-minutes-worth of acceleration.

You only have 0.0033 seconds of acceleration before the laser hits, from the time of firing, but from the time you started taking your turn to fire, the ship has moved 6-minutes-worth of acceleration. While you are aiming and trying to "lock-on" to the target, it has moved for 6 minutes. It is 6 minutes of acceleration away, 21 kilometers/second, from where you first started trying to shoot at it. Once the weapon has actually fired, you are right, it only takes 0.0033 seconds to reach it's target. In that 0.0033 seconds, it moves 0.194 kilometers or 194 meters. How did you get millimeters?

That is also assuming that the ship is not moving to begin with. If it is, then it is way worse. If the ship is already moving at 300,000km/s at the start of the round it will be moving at 321,190km/s at the end of the round. In 0.0033 seconds, it would have moved roughly, 1,060 kilometers in 0.0033 seconds.

Pretty sure missing something traveling 1,000 kilometers in the time it takes My beam of light to get there is not small potatoes.
You’re positing a pretty extreme form of quantum theory where the quantum of time for attackers is six minutes :)

Are you really saying that the tracking computer takes a snapshot of the ship’s position and then ignores any sensor data, spends six minutes calculating a firing solution (interwar BBs with mechanical computers were faster!) but ignoring any updated data, then fires a laser at where the target would have been based on its velocity six minutes earlier?!? Just because of the length of time of traveller game turns?

Do you do the same for personal combat if someone is walking at the start of the turn but stops to tie their shoelace three seconds later? “Sorry m8 your master assassin four feet away misses by three metres”.
 
Final Velocity is important as once that ship has had the opportunity to take it's turn, it has moved 6-minutes-worth of acceleration.
I'm not talking about a full turn, i am talking about the 0.0033 seconds it takes the laser to get to you.
You only have 0.0033 seconds of acceleration before the laser hits, from the time of firing, but from the time you started taking your turn to fire, the ship has moved 6-minutes-worth of acceleration.
No, we are not talking about the same thing here, the movement over the full turn doesn't matter, the time it takes the laser to hit you is what matters.
While you are aiming and trying to "lock-on" to the target, it has moved for 6 minutes.
So what? I am only interested in - where are you when I press fire, where can you be in 0.0033 seconds. The whole turn of movement doesn't matter.
It is 6 minutes of acceleration away, 21 kilometers/second, from where you first started trying to shoot at it.
None of which matters if I have a target lock on you and an active scan has given me your current location when I fire.
Once the weapon has actually fired, you are right, it only takes 0.0033 seconds to reach it's target. In that 0.0033 seconds, it moves 0.194 kilometers or 194 meters. How did you get millimeters?
I plugged the correct numbers into the correct formula, I posted it earlier.

To calculate how far an object moves under constant acceleration, we use the equation:
s = 1/2 a t2
Where:
  • ( s ) is the distance traveled,
  • ( a ) is the acceleration (90 m/s²),
  • ( t ) is the time (0.0033 seconds).
substituting the values into the equation:
s =0.5 x 90 x times (0.0033)2

s = 0.5 x times 90 x 0.00001089

s = 0.00049005 m

The fighter travels approximately 0.00049 meters (or 0.49 millimeters) during this time.
That is also assuming that the ship is not moving to begin with. If it is, then it is way worse. If the ship is already moving at 300,000km/s at the start of the round it will be moving at 321,190km/s at the end of the round. In 0.0033 seconds, it would have moved roughly, 1,060 kilometers in 0.0033 seconds.
No. In 0.0033 seconds it has moved 0.0005m from where my target data says you are.
Pretty sure missing something traveling 1,000 kilometers in the time it takes My beam of light to get there is not small potatoes.
That's because you haven't, you have moved 0.0005m from the moment the laser fires.
 
You’re positing a pretty extreme form of quantum theory where the quantum of time for attackers is six minutes :)
@Sigtrygg posited that no attack roll should be necessary because ships don't move much in 0.0033 seconds. That seems like a more extreme viewpoint than requiring an attack roll.
Are you really saying that the tracking computer takes a snapshot of the ship’s position and then ignores any sensor data, spends six minutes calculating a firing solution (interwar BBs with mechanical computers were faster!) but ignoring any updated data, then fires a laser at where the target would have been based on its velocity six minutes earlier?!? Just because of the length of time of traveller game turns?

Do you do the same for personal combat if someone is walking at the start of the turn but stops to tie their shoelace three seconds later? “Sorry m8 your master assassin four feet away misses by three metres”.
I am saying that over the course of 1 combat round, your velocity has changed by "21km and change" per second and that a 21km change over 1 second means that the ship has moved 194 meters in that 0.0033 seconds.

A cube-shaped 1,000-ton ship has what dimensions? A little over 24 meters, correct? That is a difference of 8 ship-lengths. 194 meters divided by 24 meters.
 
No, the ship moves 0.0005m from its predicted future position - I know your velocity at the instance I fire so I know exactly where to aim, the only way you can not be there is to accelerate which only changes your future position bu 0.0005m.

The error in your future location due to evasive acceleration.
 
No, the ship moves 0.0005m from its predicted future position - I know your velocity at the instance I fire so I know exactly where to aim, the only way you can not be there is to accelerate which only changes your future position bu 0.0005m.

The error in your future location due to evasive acceleration.
Activate Heisenberg uncertainty generators and go to full thrust!
 
@Sigtrygg was absolutely right. And you can’t argue with his perfectly correct maths by complaining that light isn’t behaving according to traveller turn mechanics.

At some point in the turn, your far-future Aegis detects and acquires a target, resolves a solution, and fires, just as i”the target starts to accelerate at your 9G example.

Light turns out to be pretty nippy in a vacuum, so a fraction of a second later you nail the target, albeit a very tiny fraction of a metre (allowing also for computation time) away from where you meant to. The rest of the turn plays out.

Put frankly, this is the second thread today where you’ve not covered yourself in maths glory (the other being where you forgot that cubic metres exist in 3D). It’s probably worth rereading Sigtrygg’s explanation and taking a minute to check you get it.
 
No, the ship moves 0.0005m from its predicted future position - I know your velocity at the instance I fire so I know exactly where to aim, the only way you can not be there is to accelerate which only changes your future position bu 0.0005m.

The error in your future location due to evasive acceleration.
So, your viewpoint is that you should not need to roll to hit with lightspeed weapons, but at the same time lasers should only be flashlight strength by the time the bean actually gets to its target?

I also notice that the gunner skill uses the DEX Mod not the INT Mod so you are "aiming and firing" manually. That means things as simple as hand twitch will throw off your shot. (Which would be included in extremely low rolls) It also means that your mind cannot process, and your body cannot react to things in as small of a timeframe as 0.0033 seconds. If it was 100% computer-controlled, I would agree with you as being possible, but humans and near-humans just can't react like that.
 
This kind of gameplay would push characters into group scenarios, like naval operations, etc. I guess a small pocket carrier or a patrol vessel with a complement of 5 to 10 fighters might be a good way to do this.

People only think of fighters as effective against large ships because of movies and shows, which throw sense out the window in favor of drama and story technique.

I prefer the method of looking at the rules, seeing the 'realities' they create, and then adapting the setting. To do otherwise is to throw out whatever sense, logic, cause and effect, or assumptions impartial application of the rules create, and just have a narrative driven story game.
Rule of cool has some value in game design. But it needs to be applied to where the players will actually be (and in moderation). We have human crews on ships instead of all robots and AI because that's the setting we want.

As far as I know, no one is interested in fleet combat where a single fighter is a maneuver element. As you pointed out, fighters in a fleet battle are going to be 30 or 90 or perhaps even more to the "unit". We should make fighters fun and effective, because a lot of players want to be "space fighter pilots". But they should be fun and effective at the scale of the player characters. They don't have to be fleet combat worthy because fleet combats are not "player scale" activities.
 
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