5FW: Why?
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
CT/SMC had this to say by way of explanation for the Frontier Wars..
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
The Zhodani engage the Third Imperium in wars to stop the Imperium's expansion. They're well aware of the economic might the Imperium can bring to bear and have long feared a society 'where thieves and psychopaths not only run loose, but are allowed to lead!'
There are some remarkably Vilani traits to Zhodani culture, especially where social stability and controlled change are concerned. The Nobles wish for slow, sedate, managed change where necessary and rigidly hold on to their traditions where change is not necessary. And all of Zhodani society is constructed with this in mind. The rampant and uncontrolled populace of the Imperium frightens the Zhodani, bringing back memories of their two Dark Ages.
With these factors in mind, conflict is inevitable on the Imperial Zhodani border, 'conflict' being defined as all types of cultural clashing not just or only warfare. Philosophical, scientific, artistic, all venues of Human endeavor are grist for the mill in these stuggles. To some extent there seems to be a Zhodani strategic goal of maintaining the borders by starting a war every few generations 'to bleed the pressure off'.
I think it is also germane to note that the Zhos have a penchant to go to war with the Imperium within about 100 or so years of the beginning of a Core Expedition.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The wave.
Rhylanor has an Ancient device that may stop it.
See MgT 1e Alien Module Zhodani. I really hope it has been retconned and the reason is once again to curtail Imperial expansion.
Because there is no way the Zhodani would fight the Frontier Wars the way they are presented if all they need to do is get to Rhylanor.
Rhylanor has an Ancient device that may stop it.
See MgT 1e Alien Module Zhodani. I really hope it has been retconned and the reason is once again to curtail Imperial expansion.
Because there is no way the Zhodani would fight the Frontier Wars the way they are presented if all they need to do is get to Rhylanor.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Extract that I hope has been retconned out of existence:
"The Fourth Frontier War, or ‘False War’ (1082 to 1084) was triggered by a border incident and was fought by reflex: it ended in an armistice even before the Qlomdlabrcould receive news of the war and send orders to the front. However, Tozjabr operatives deep in Imperial territory on Rhylanor (2716 Tloql) to observe Imperial fleet movements, made a shocking discovery during the war ... there was a second Erdriap Chensh* – on Rhylanor. More interesting was the fact that the complex appeared from observation to be significantly larger than the original but the Erdriad Erdriap** already in Zhodani hands should still be able to control the function of the Erdriap Chensh on Rhylanor.
Some Nobles argued for seizing this opportunity to lay waste to Imperial territories for centuries but cooler heads prevailed. If this Erdriap Chensh was large enough, then the two together might help save the Consulate. But fort hat to happen, Rhylanor had to be in Zhodani hands.
The accidental deaths of two members of the Qlomdlabr standing committee in 1096 led to a sudden realignment of forces within the council, with a majority favouring action against the Imperium to seize Rhylanor. Long planned military and covert operations by the Tozjabr and the Zhodani Navy were approved to act as soon as necessary resources could be made available.
The decision for the final conflict with the Imperium has been made. On that gamble precariously rests the future
of the Zhodani culture."
*Ancient device
** yeti nother Ancient device (old knock knock joke, I can not take this stuff seriously)
So there you have it.
The FFW as written by MJD is pointless if this is the real objective.
Send special forces in ahead of the invasion - the most highly trained psionic agents you have - or PCs for short.
Launch invasion and send every jump 4 BatRon and Cru Ron to Rhylaonor asap. Jump3 fleet elements take on the task of occupying Imperial forces (this in itself is stupid, if the Zhodani have an existential threat they should outnumber the Imperials ten or more to one).
Take Rhylanor - twelve weeks from start to launching invasion of Rhylanor with overwhelming force and agents already on the ground.
"The Fourth Frontier War, or ‘False War’ (1082 to 1084) was triggered by a border incident and was fought by reflex: it ended in an armistice even before the Qlomdlabrcould receive news of the war and send orders to the front. However, Tozjabr operatives deep in Imperial territory on Rhylanor (2716 Tloql) to observe Imperial fleet movements, made a shocking discovery during the war ... there was a second Erdriap Chensh* – on Rhylanor. More interesting was the fact that the complex appeared from observation to be significantly larger than the original but the Erdriad Erdriap** already in Zhodani hands should still be able to control the function of the Erdriap Chensh on Rhylanor.
Some Nobles argued for seizing this opportunity to lay waste to Imperial territories for centuries but cooler heads prevailed. If this Erdriap Chensh was large enough, then the two together might help save the Consulate. But fort hat to happen, Rhylanor had to be in Zhodani hands.
The accidental deaths of two members of the Qlomdlabr standing committee in 1096 led to a sudden realignment of forces within the council, with a majority favouring action against the Imperium to seize Rhylanor. Long planned military and covert operations by the Tozjabr and the Zhodani Navy were approved to act as soon as necessary resources could be made available.
The decision for the final conflict with the Imperium has been made. On that gamble precariously rests the future
of the Zhodani culture."
*Ancient device
** yeti nother Ancient device (old knock knock joke, I can not take this stuff seriously)
So there you have it.
The FFW as written by MJD is pointless if this is the real objective.
Send special forces in ahead of the invasion - the most highly trained psionic agents you have - or PCs for short.
Launch invasion and send every jump 4 BatRon and Cru Ron to Rhylaonor asap. Jump3 fleet elements take on the task of occupying Imperial forces (this in itself is stupid, if the Zhodani have an existential threat they should outnumber the Imperials ten or more to one).
Take Rhylanor - twelve weeks from start to launching invasion of Rhylanor with overwhelming force and agents already on the ground.
So, essentially, the answer is no. There is no information given in the current materials about what this war is about or why it is being fought. Or how the Zhos expect to win it. We are just guessing which of the various past reasons might be the case.
I don't think this has been retconned, unfortunately. The "psionic determinist" NPC in the latest adventure seems to be obsessed with Rhylanor for reasons no one else in the crew is aware of. It may not be the war aim of the Zhos per se, but at least some faction in the Consulate thinks it should be.
I guess my concern is that I don't know why now? Or what they are hoping to accomplish. Or how they think they will accomplish it. There's references in the various books to getting a decisive victory or negotiating the afterwards or causing the Imperial morale to fail.
Who are they negotiating with? Sector Duke Nonexistant? Archduke AsYetUnappointed? An Imperial Plenipotentiary who isn't gonna be here for a year?
I suppose since Santanocheev is under Delphine's thumb, it's possible to negotiate with her about the disposition of the peace? But is Super-Norris gonna listen to any such agreement? Will the Sector Admiral of Deneb or the Grand Admiral of the Corridor Fleet care what some subsector duke has to say?
If you are trying to stop expansion, do you really think pushing them back a subsector will accomplish that? Seems more likely that wiping out the Imperials in District 268 and the Five Sisters would be a high priority, since that is actually where they are expanding. But it seems to be a backwater.
The books being produced are interesting enough. But there's not much you can do with them yet. Save them up for a few years from now when we actually have enough information to run a campaign using them. Or, more likely, cannibalize them for some other purpose in the meantime.
Who are they negotiating with? Sector Duke Nonexistant? Archduke AsYetUnappointed? An Imperial Plenipotentiary who isn't gonna be here for a year?
I suppose since Santanocheev is under Delphine's thumb, it's possible to negotiate with her about the disposition of the peace? But is Super-Norris gonna listen to any such agreement? Will the Sector Admiral of Deneb or the Grand Admiral of the Corridor Fleet care what some subsector duke has to say?
If you are trying to stop expansion, do you really think pushing them back a subsector will accomplish that? Seems more likely that wiping out the Imperials in District 268 and the Five Sisters would be a high priority, since that is actually where they are expanding. But it seems to be a backwater.
The books being produced are interesting enough. But there's not much you can do with them yet. Save them up for a few years from now when we actually have enough information to run a campaign using them. Or, more likely, cannibalize them for some other purpose in the meantime.
Talon Greyfeather
Banded Mongoose
For me - This has been my biggest disappointment with the 5FW books. I like the fact that it is being left open ended for the game master to determine the outcome, but are we to determine the Zhodani purpose as well? The tactics are there but the why/purpose is missing. I am second guessing my 5FW purchases ... and need to even include it IMT 3I. And the thing is, I really would like to do so ... but ... there just doesn't seem to be a reason on the Zhodani side as currently presented.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The Rhylanor hypothesis makes a mockery of fighting the war the way MJD has mapped out.
Slight aside - what happened to referee choice - seems pretty railroady to me so far.
If the Rhylanor maguffin is of existential purpose to the Zhodani they don't piss about with invasions on multiple fronts. A few diversions that keep the Imperium guessing while you park the entire Grand Armada Fleet of Fleets of Zhodan and take the planet.
You have had decades, you should outnumber the Imperial Spineard Marches fleet, regular and colonial, 100 to 1.
There should be battalions of Zhodani sleeper agents on Rhylanor ready to go.
Slight aside - what happened to referee choice - seems pretty railroady to me so far.
If the Rhylanor maguffin is of existential purpose to the Zhodani they don't piss about with invasions on multiple fronts. A few diversions that keep the Imperium guessing while you park the entire Grand Armada Fleet of Fleets of Zhodan and take the planet.
You have had decades, you should outnumber the Imperial Spineard Marches fleet, regular and colonial, 100 to 1.
There should be battalions of Zhodani sleeper agents on Rhylanor ready to go.
bartlebyfosco
Mongoose
I don't think I understand this. If you like the 5FW and want it in your game, why are you waiting for the company to fill in all the details first? I am not arguing it should or should not have been included or it would or would not be a good seller. I just mean, if you have stuff, and it is cool, and you want it in your game...why not invent a reason that works for you and add it in your game? Then you can play it, and you won't be disappointed with whatever they come up with (if they do).
Not trying to be snarky. Just a question from referee to referee.
Because we are talking about a product line, not about our campaigns? I don't need any products from Mongoose or anyone else to tell cool Traveller stories.
But *these* products are intended to serve a purpose. He's questioning why he bothered to buy this stuff if it's not going to do the thing it is designed for. You can't buy the stuff that's been produced and "run the Fifth Frontier War" with it. It doesn't provide the necessary elements.
You can, of course, run your own Zhodani-Imperial war of your own devising. But that's just writing off these products because what I do or what he does isn't going to align with all this stuff Mongoose is trying to sell us down the road.
Deepnight and Pirates of Drinax sold you the beginning and the end of the campaign and then added the middle later. You could run the campaign knowing there the end game was going to be before you decided to use the material or not.
The stuff published so far is interesting and pretty well written, but it's not usable for anything except inspiration. We now have 4 completely different "intro the the war" scenarios from different perspectives. And a bunch of stuff that is basically a "this is how events unfold" in the actual fighting.
But we don't know why or where it's going or how to actually run the game in a way that's going to stay in the same frame as the future adventures. I imagine at some point in 2026 or 2027 there will be enough material to "run the Fifth Frontier War campaign". But there isn't right now. IMHO.
But *these* products are intended to serve a purpose. He's questioning why he bothered to buy this stuff if it's not going to do the thing it is designed for. You can't buy the stuff that's been produced and "run the Fifth Frontier War" with it. It doesn't provide the necessary elements.
You can, of course, run your own Zhodani-Imperial war of your own devising. But that's just writing off these products because what I do or what he does isn't going to align with all this stuff Mongoose is trying to sell us down the road.
Deepnight and Pirates of Drinax sold you the beginning and the end of the campaign and then added the middle later. You could run the campaign knowing there the end game was going to be before you decided to use the material or not.
The stuff published so far is interesting and pretty well written, but it's not usable for anything except inspiration. We now have 4 completely different "intro the the war" scenarios from different perspectives. And a bunch of stuff that is basically a "this is how events unfold" in the actual fighting.
But we don't know why or where it's going or how to actually run the game in a way that's going to stay in the same frame as the future adventures. I imagine at some point in 2026 or 2027 there will be enough material to "run the Fifth Frontier War campaign". But there isn't right now. IMHO.
bartlebyfosco
Mongoose
OK thank you. I can see that I look for something different in my purchases.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Could be part of a Zhodani psychological operation, to build the case, and convince the Imperium, that some ancient evil is heading in both their directions, and that the Zhodani are desperately finding a way to ward it off.
Depends on what is being bought. Sourcebooks are all around useful. Stand alone adventures are all around useful. You use what you want out of those. You have the book, it's complete. You can decide what to do with it.
Campaigns, in theory, are designed for a series of adventures telling a coherent story. They are bought by people (not counting completionist types like me) by people who want to run that story. So when you don't have the whole story, you can't decide if you want to use it. You don't know what you need to do to adapt it because you don't know what the big picture is. It does not serve its purpose.
bartlebyfosco
Mongoose
That is a reasonable approach, but not the only approach.
Mongoose can come out with Campaign X: The Travelling - Part One. And I can buy it and run it and invent Part Two myself, if I want. I don't begrudge people who are frustrated that Part Two is taking too long because they want to run it all as written. But if you like Part One you don't need Part Two.
Sure.
But I would still argue that it is a bad product design in general.
The majority of people buying a campaign are looking to run the campaign. If you sell a "Part 1" (like Mysteries of the Ancients) then folks can say "okay, we'll run part 1" or "we'll hold off". But, as far as I can tell, we don't have any kind of story. What's released so far is not useable. You can't "run part one". There's an outline of what the NPCs are doing. And you are writing the whole thing yourself.
That's not the product people are generally looking for when they buy a campaign. If they were advertising "Hey, we are selling a bunch of sourcebooks so you can build your own 5FW", that might be what we have so far. But we don't know WHY the NPCs are behaving the way they are. That's crucial if we are supposed to build on this scaffolding.
The books themselves are good quality and have interesting stuff. But they are fragments of a jigsaw puzzle and we don't have a picture of the final product to go by.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Outside of bad writing, it could be more due to preconceived notions as to how the setting is, and how it should evolve.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
The Consulate's strategic goal have never been conquest of Imperial territory, it has always been to rein in Imperial expansion.
I've always thought the 'magic rock at Rhylanor' was just plain dumb. It was too pat, too simplistic, and too childish. Yes, the Zhodani are deeply concerned about the Insanity Wave, as well they should be. The wave will wreck the vast majority of the Consulate decades before it hits the Core-most of the Imperial border and this leaves the Zhodani incredibly vulnerable.
It's my opinion based on my study of history the Zhodani strategic goal for the 5th FW is to push the Imperium back to a line of Aramis, Rhylenor, Mora, and Trin's Veil Subsectors, giving a 2 subsector deep buffer zone so that the Consulate can deal with the Wave effects without Imperial interference. I also freely admit that this is a desperate hope and a damned thin thread to hang the fate of your society from.
I also don't think that a simple 'one stab at Rhylenor' tactic would do anything but waste the strategic initiative. The Zhos didn't 'catch the Imperium on their back foot', the caught the Imperium with their boots all the way off. In order to successfully establish the buffer zone they believe they need, the Consulate has to reduce the Imperial naval presence [that is, engage and destroy the Spinward Marches Fleet] and destroy the naval bases and shipyards capable of supporting such a fleet in 8 subsectors of Imperial territory. That is a mighty big order. The Consular Navy has been training its officer corps for just this task for the last 5 or 10 years. Meanwhile the Imperial Admiralty, convinced of its own supremacy, has been eff'ing around with social politics in the officer's mess and relying on dated tactical and strategic thinking. To be blunt about it, the Consulate may never get another chance as good as this one to stymie and deflect Imperial expansion.
I've always thought the 'magic rock at Rhylanor' was just plain dumb. It was too pat, too simplistic, and too childish. Yes, the Zhodani are deeply concerned about the Insanity Wave, as well they should be. The wave will wreck the vast majority of the Consulate decades before it hits the Core-most of the Imperial border and this leaves the Zhodani incredibly vulnerable.
It's my opinion based on my study of history the Zhodani strategic goal for the 5th FW is to push the Imperium back to a line of Aramis, Rhylenor, Mora, and Trin's Veil Subsectors, giving a 2 subsector deep buffer zone so that the Consulate can deal with the Wave effects without Imperial interference. I also freely admit that this is a desperate hope and a damned thin thread to hang the fate of your society from.
I also don't think that a simple 'one stab at Rhylenor' tactic would do anything but waste the strategic initiative. The Zhos didn't 'catch the Imperium on their back foot', the caught the Imperium with their boots all the way off. In order to successfully establish the buffer zone they believe they need, the Consulate has to reduce the Imperial naval presence [that is, engage and destroy the Spinward Marches Fleet] and destroy the naval bases and shipyards capable of supporting such a fleet in 8 subsectors of Imperial territory. That is a mighty big order. The Consular Navy has been training its officer corps for just this task for the last 5 or 10 years. Meanwhile the Imperial Admiralty, convinced of its own supremacy, has been eff'ing around with social politics in the officer's mess and relying on dated tactical and strategic thinking. To be blunt about it, the Consulate may never get another chance as good as this one to stymie and deflect Imperial expansion.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Obvious goal would be to push them back to the Corridor, and defend that.
Massage massive mastiff migration rimward.
travellermap.com
Massage massive mastiff migration rimward.
The Traveller Map
An interactive map of the universe of the Traveller role playing game, incorporating official data and fan submissions. The site also provides services for generating custom maps and APIs for incorporating maps into other sites.
travellermap.com
