5FW: Why?

[MasterGwydion]

@Sigtrygg was absolutely right. And you can’t argue with his perfectly correct maths by complaining that light isn’t behaving according to traveller turn mechanics.

At some point in the turn, your far-future Aegis detects and acquires a target, resolves a solution, and fires, just as i”the target starts to accelerate at your 9G example.

I would totally agree that this is possible, but it doesn't fit the Traveller rules. What you are describing is a 100% automated system. Traveller doesn't use a 100% automated system in most cases, you can build one, but because Traveller wants to highlight sophonts over machines, they do not gain any real benefit over sophont gunners.

Light turns out to be pretty nippy in a vacuum, so a fraction of a second later you nail the target, albeit a very tiny fraction of a metre (allowing also for computation time) away from where you meant to. The rest of the turn plays out.

If you wish to be realistic instead of using Traveller rules. Try this one.

Let’s say a laser has a divergence of 1 milliradian (which is fairly tight). Over 1,000 km, the beam’s diameter can be estimated as:

Beam Diameter=Divergence×Distance\text{Beam Diameter} = \text{Divergence} \times \text{Distance}
=(1 mrad)×(1,000,000 m)= (1 \text{ mrad}) \times (1,000,000 \text{ m})
=1,000 m=1 km= 1,000 \text{ m} = 1 \text{ km}
So a beam with 1 mrad divergence would cover 1 km-wide at that distance.

That means that your laser beam is 1 kilometer wide by the time it hits it's target.

Put frankly, this is the second thread today where you’ve not covered yourself in maths glory (the other being where you forgot that cubic metres exist in 3D). It’s probably worth rereading Sigtrygg’s explanation and taking a minute to check you get it.

My math is horrible today. I am sick and have a house with 3 sick kids in it, so I am pretty wiped out. That is true.

 

[Terry Mixon]

We should make fighters fun and effective, because a lot of players want to be "space fighter pilots". But they should be fun and effective at the scale of the player characters. They don't have to be fleet combat worthy because fleet combats are not "player scale" activities.

I can agree with this. My initial point was that fighters needed to be more effective vs larger ships. Not capital ships necessarily, but say sub 10,000 ton. As they are now, they aren’t a threat to anything 2,000 tons or greater. Their range rules mean they have to be right on top of them, too. Suicide. That has to change to give them playability.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I can agree with this. My initial point was that fighters needed to be more effective vs larger ships. Not capital ships necessarily, but say sub 10,000 ton. As they are now, they aren’t a threat to anything 2,000 tons or greater. Their range rules mean they have to be right on top of them, too. Suicide. That has to change to give them playability.

If they didn't nerf the range on Firmpoints, they'd be good enough for Me.

 

[Terry Mixon]

If they didn't nerf the range on Firmpoints, they'd be good enough for Me.

That was what broke them, I’d imagine.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That was what broke them, I’d imagine.

Although, now that I think more about it, if they didn't nerf the range on firmpoint weapons, then you could stock up on Light Fighters in docking clamps and basically have one weapon for every 11 tons of ship.

Edit - So a 100-ton ship could mount, effectively, 10 turrets. lol

 

[MasterGwydion]

That could be fixed by requiring docking clamps to use hardpoints. It makes sense. The spot where docking clamps are installed in the hull, would have to be reinforced from a real-world viewpoint, so there is justification for it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So, your viewpoint is that you should not need to roll to hit with lightspeed weapons, but at the same time lasers should only be flashlight strength by the time the bean actually gets to its target?

Once you get within a certain range then lightspeed weapons can't miss. Or at least, with perfect fire control, machinery working faultlessly, vibrations in the hull of the firing ship, the communication time for the manuvering attitude computer to talk to the fire control and laser actuators will introduce an error.

I also notice that the gunner skill uses the DEX Mod not the INT Mod so you are "aiming and firing" manually.

The gunner presses a button to authorise the laser to fire, a human couldn't aim without computer assistance at 100km let alone the 10,000km accuracy of the laser. Luke and Han sitting in ball turrets is pure... pew pew

That means things as simple as hand twitch will throw off your shot.

No one would build such a system. You line up the targeting reticule with the target indicator and authorise the laser to fire. The weapon fires when the fire control computer says fire.

(Which would be included in extremely low rolls) It also means that your mind cannot process, and your body cannot react to things in as small of a timeframe as 0.0033 seconds. If it was 100% computer-controlled, I would agree with you as being possible, but humans and near-humans just can't react like that.

it has nothing to do with reaction times, processing times and the rest.

Your firing solution may take a minute to resolve, but once you have a target lock and you have a known future position that laser takes 0.0033 seconds to hit you, and you have not moved more than 0.0005m from that position.

 

[Terry Mixon]

That could be fixed by requiring docking clamps to use hardpoints. It makes sense. The spot where docking clamps are installed in the hull, would have to be reinforced from a real-world viewpoint, so there is justification for it.

Don’t you go messing around with my merchant tenders, pal. Docking clamps can be wherever they like.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If they didn't nerf the range on Firmpoints, they'd be good enough for Me.

Replace the firmpoint with the single turret weapon as you are allowed.

 

[Sigtrygg]

That could be fixed by requiring docking clamps to use hardpoints. It makes sense. The spot where docking clamps are installed in the hull, would have to be reinforced from a real-world viewpoint, so there is justification for it.

So you carry them internally.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Your firing solution may take a minute to resolve, but once you have a target lock and you have a known future position that laser takes 0.0033 seconds to hit you, and you have not moved more than 0.0005m from that position.

Or change the stealth or ECM rules so that they introduce uncertainty in the exact position of the target. Then the smaller it is, the more agile, the greater the likelihood of generating a miss.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Replace the firmpoint with the single turret weapon as you are allowed.

I’m uncertain that changes the range limitation as it is still potentially based on a firmpoint. I know that has been asked for clarification multiple times but crickets.

@MongooseMatt, why isn’t there a thread where we can ask specifically about rules to get clarity? Say in the feedback area. Stumbling around in the dark on what rules mean could be fixed so easily with a question/answer area. You could call it “Dear MongooseMatt” or “What the hell does this mean?”

 

[Sigtrygg]

Agility is that change of location by 0.0005m.
Stealth in space - nope, not until gravitic heat sinks are made canon
ECM - that's another topic, sensors and electronic warfare

 

[Terry Mixon]

Agility is that change of location by 0.0005m.
Stealth in space - nope, not until gravitic heat sinks are made canon
ECM - that's another topic, sensors and electronic warfare

Yet stealth is part of the game rules and could be part of the handwavium that makes a hit uncertain. Until it isn’t a factor, it is a factor. And for the record, I’m all for your gravitic heat sinks.

ECM is a better candidate though. Anything that makes the precise location uncertain makes this workable.

 

[Sigtrygg]

"One (and only one) Firmpoint can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret, which may fire in all directions as normal.

A weapon mounted on a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it:
• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of Long or greater are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Firmpoint range limitations do not apply to missiles and torpedoes.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).
• Barbettes consume three Firmpoints."

To me that reads as if a small craft can have (depending on size):
a single turret - no restriction on the weapon
a firmpoint, two firmpoints, or three firmpoints, limited as above
a single turret - no restrictions, one firmpoint restrictions apply
a single turret - no restrictions, two firmpoints restrictions apply
a barbette - no restrictions other than it replaces all three firmpoints.

 

[MasterGwydion]

"One (and only one) Firmpoint can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret, which may fire in all directions as normal.

A weapon mounted on a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it:
• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of Long or greater are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Firmpoint range limitations do not apply to missiles and torpedoes.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).
• Barbettes consume three Firmpoints."

To me that reads as if a small craft can have (depending on size):
a single turret - no restriction on the weapon
a firmpoint, two firmpoints, or three firmpoints, limited as above
a single turret - no restrictions, one firmpoint restrictions apply
a single turret - no restrictions, two firmpoints restrictions apply
a barbette - no restrictions other than it replaces all three firmpoints.

With this interpretation, now I totally want to try a 100-ton build with 9 Light Drone Fighters in Docking clamps to use as 9 extra turrets on the ship. lolz. Found a way to make fighters and carriers nasty..

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yet stealth is part of the game rules and could be part of the handwavium that makes a hit uncertain. Until it isn’t a factor, it is a factor.

Does stealth as it exists now make a target more difficult to hit at 1,000km?

And for the record, I’m all for your gravitic heat sinks.

I think they could fix something that is currently just ignored while also adding another cool thing to play with

ECM is a better candidate though. Anything that makes the precise location uncertain makes this workable.

That works, but then it requires a competition between the fighter's ECM or whatever and the targeting sensors of the attacker, is that something for the to hit roll or a separate thing to resolve?

I could replace all sensor tasks with APE ratings - active, passive, electronic warfare. The A or P of the attacker is compared with the E of the target, if E wins then a penalty to hit.

Smaller craft have lower signatures and less heat and so have a bonus to E from that, large ships have more extensive electronics and so they can get a bonus due to brute force.

A fighter's A and P could be lower than a large ship due to limited sensor size...

long story short

Escort 1000t APE 4 2 2, fighter APE 2 1 4 - the fighter gets a -2 to be hit if the escort uses passive, but no modifier if the escort goes active.

Going active makes it easier for others to target you...

 

[Terry Mixon]

"One (and only one) Firmpoint can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret, which may fire in all directions as normal.

A weapon mounted on a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it:
• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of Long or greater are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Firmpoint range limitations do not apply to missiles and torpedoes.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).
• Barbettes consume three Firmpoints."

To me that reads as if a small craft can have (depending on size):
a single turret - no restriction on the weapon
a firmpoint, two firmpoints, or three firmpoints, limited as above
a single turret - no restrictions, one firmpoint restrictions apply
a single turret - no restrictions, two firmpoints restrictions apply
a barbette - no restrictions other than it replaces all three firmpoints.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. All I’m saying is that by not being clear that they have full range we don’t know for sure. Something to post about in the Dear MongooseMatt thread I’m half temped to make.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think it is as clear as mud...

 

[actionman]

Culture drones? No. What are they?

Culture drones were in an obscure issue of a third party Traveller Ship's Locker article. They fly to within broadcast range and broadcast Culture Beat on all frequencies so that enemy crews will be unable to fight because they'll be grooving too hard.

Any enemy ships still functioning will be hit with the hardstyle extended remix.