5FW: Why?

[Condottiere]

Depends.

In theory, you could vector thrust without needing reaction control system.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Asteroids to play drop the rock are free...

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8xgysv/rocks_are_not_for_free

 

[Sigtrygg]

With all possible respect, you routinely refer back to older editions in your arguments about this or that issue.

I do, indeed. Guilty as charged
Mongoose now owns CT, that means the OTU is theirs.
Marc used to say he is bound by canon, I'm not so sure MgT follows that philosophy.

I do, however, appreciate you clearing up your thesis. As you know, we all tend to digress more than a little bit and bringing things back to the point is sometimes necessary.

No problem at all. I often lose track of conversations on different threads about similar topics, even posting stuff on Coti or here that references the other and vise versa so it makes no sense at all. I am just glad these forums have a sensilbe editing policy unlike CotI.

I personally am NOT taking MgT1e's Zhodani book as the basis of the 5th FW; I've chosen the MgT2e 'Aliens of Charted Space vol. 1'. In that source no mention is made of the 'magic rock in Rhylenor' theory. [And I'm on record as saying the whole 'magic rock' thing is pretty simplistic and rather childish.]

Yo be fair a lot of MgT2e 'Aliens of Charted Space vol. 1 is cut and paste from 1e, which in itself is cut and paste from GT. It is also pretty minimal on information verging on disappointing.
I really hope the 1e Rhylanor scenario has been retconned out of existence.

 

[MongooseMatt]

3. To start a war, you usually need a plurality of interest groups backing it.

*This*

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

Not a great fan of the Magic Rock theory (or the Wave for the matter), But I would point out that if your strategic goal was to capture and hold Rhylanor (although, you'd think a series of diplomatic meetings to address the GIANT WAVE OF DOOM HEADING RIGHT FOR ALL OF US!!!! would be a more rational approach to the dilemma) then the last thing you want to do is telegraph that goal by focusing all your forces on a drive straight towards your target.

I completely disagree.

The Zhodani know they can only achieve so much before Imperial reinforcements start arriving, so if Rhylanbor is the existential objective you go ther in 5 jumps with every jump 4 ship you have while your jump 3 ship do the diversions.

Yhe Imperium doesn't have god mode, they don't find out for weeks where you fleet last jumped to. Then you have to recognise a pattern, then cut orders and send them to your own fleets that have also moved...

Try it. Dig out the FFW boardgame and follow the set up but with 1 additional rule. The Zhodani player picks the location of the maguffin which can be no closer than 6 jumps. If they can take and hold that world for 4 turns then they win. All other victory condidtions apply also so the Zhodani can also win by their diversionary fleets taking worlds and keeping the Imperium guessing.

With the times and delays involved, feints and misdirection should precede a well-orchestrated campaign to take the system (or just the world) and hold it for long enough to do the Magic Incarnation. Of course, I've already pointed out that a strictly military approach to the problem might not be the smartest strategy.

They need to do so before the Imperium mobilises their reinforcements.

Or, if all you need is a squad of Psions in a chamber deep beneath the surface to perform the Magic Ritual and activate demonstrate the effect, then the whole war thing with millions of causalities and trillions of credits (or Zhodani Psi chits or whatever they use) seems to be a misguided use of resources.

You mean get PCs to actually be involved? What an incredibly silly idea.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

The boardgame exists, dig it out and game it out.

 

[Sigtrygg]

(Static) defences are a force multiplier.

They tend to encourage detours.

Placed strategically, usually into a battlefield of the defender's choosing.

They can't jump so can be bypassed...

 

[MongooseMatt]

Marc used to say he is bound by canon, I'm not so sure MgT follows that philosophy.

Mongoose is bound by canon. Mostly. Unless a better idea comes along.

Yo be fair a lot of MgT2e 'Aliens of Charted Space vol. 1 is cut and paste from 1e, which in itself is cut and paste from GT. It is also pretty minimal on information

To be even more fair. this was always the point. The Aliens of Charted Space books were never intended to be definitive - they were a vehicle to get aliens into the game as quickly as possible, driven by requests on these very forums.

The 'Empire' books (such as Third Imperium and the forthcoming Aslan Hierate and Zhodani Consulate) will be the 'detail'. Not necessarily the final word, but look on the current Aliens of Charted Space titles more as rules additions with enough lore attached to be getting on with.

Basically, you guys wanted these aliens in the game so we got them out early on, always intending to go back and fill in the gaps

 

[Sigtrygg]

Well crap! That makes meson weapons nearly useless. The fluff says, "Spinal weapons are specifically designed to deliver knockout blows against the largest vessels and surface installations."

I guess the writers need to check the rules. A handful of Meson Screens now defeats the largest and most fearsome shipborne weapons in Charted Space.

Smallest Meson Spinal Mount 7,500-tons, 6D of damage, 2GCr, 1,000 power, 75 gunners

Meson Screens 180-tons, 36D of absoption (total), 360MCr, 540 power, 1 gunner

Largest Meson Spinal Mount 75,000-tons, 60D of damage, 20GCr, 10,000 power, 750 gunners

Mesons Screens 1,800-tons, 360D of absoption (total), 3.6GCr, 5,400 power, 1 gunner

1,800-tons out of a Battleship or a Dreadnaught is not bad to be completely immune to Meson Weapons unless ganged up on, but you can add a few extra gunners since most ships are not carrying maxed out meson spinals.

Why wouldn't it? In space there is nothing for the ship to push against to turn quickly. It is like stopping a boat by reversing the engine. Underground, it is attached to the ground. Crash a boat into the ground and it stops much more quickly. Also, remember that ships only produce 25% of their thrust to the sides which is where the force for turning comes from.

Agent of the Imperium has introduced that you have to drop your own screen to fire your meson weapons...

 

[Condottiere]

At least with cloaking, the other side has no idea where you happen to be when you drop that.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Mongoose is bound by canon. Mostly. Unless a better idea comes along.

It is your universe to with as you wish.

To be even more fair. this was always the point. The Aliens of Charted Space books were never intended to be definitive - they were a vehicle to get aliens into the game as quickly as possible, driven by requests on these very forums.

From the blub for ACS 1

"Aliens of Charted Space Volume 1 reveals the secrets kept by the Tavrchedl’, or ‘Guardians of our Morality’, and the Zhodani Core Expeditions."

I was expecting to learn something about the core expeditions, what I got is:

"Many are tasked with supporting the core expeditions but exploration also continues in other directions, albeit at a much slower pace.
Ninz-class scouts see extensive use for supplemental surveys off the main axis of exploration within the Core Expeditions."

As an aside a couple of the ACS books have disappeared from my downloads library, I can only find 3 and yet I have 1 and 2 on my shelf and the pdfs saved.

The 'Empire' books (such as Third Imperium and the forthcoming Aslan Hierate and Zhodani Consulate) will be the 'detail'. Not necessarily the final word, but look on the current Aliens of Charted Space titles more as rules additions with enough lore attached to be getting on with.

Basically, you guys wanted these aliens in the game so we got them out early on, always intending to go back and fill in the gaps

Fair enough.

 

[paltrysum]

Ah. I misread how the screens work. I thought their effect was applied to the preliminary damage, not the final amount. Although once we're up to battleships and dreadnaughts, they do actually have the tonnage to consider a few thousand screens. It is possible to build a counter meson battery assault ship. Even one successful screen will remove the radiation though.

Yes, that's correct. You'd need thousands of screens to effectively counteract most meson guns. You can design a ship that's impervious to a meson weapon, but you'll be taking away from your ability to do much else.

 

[MongooseMatt]

As an aside a couple of the ACS books have disappeared from my downloads library, I can only find 3 and yet I have 1 and 2 on my shelf and the pdfs saved.

That we can sort out - drop a line to sales@mongoosepublishing.com and they will get you sorted on those.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Yes, that's correct. You'd need thousands of screens to effectively counteract most meson guns. You can design a ship that's impervious to a meson weapon, but you'll be taking away from your ability to do much else.

Also worth pointing out that anything to do with how capital ships interact right now should be seen as a placeholder (funnily enough, was chatting to Marc about this a couple of weeks ago). At some point (he said) we will tackle capital ships and fleet combat on an 'official' level, but it will be done during a game that focusses on that level of fighting (roles of missiles, fighters, spinal mounts, secondaries, etc).

Some of the core mechanics in the new VHB may help out here, but we will see what you chaps think of them first.

 

[ottarrus]

Yes, that's correct. You'd need thousands of screens to effectively counteract most meson guns. You can design a ship that's impervious to a meson weapon, but you'll be taking away from your ability to do much else.

Combat ships, whether maritime or celestial, have the same design issues as armored vehicles:
Once you define the vehicle's role in the force package, you have to balance out four primary properties in the vehicle - - armor /defenses, speed, firepower, and operational duration [the time the vehicle can stay on station doing its job]. The tricky part is that every impacts everything else, usually negatively.
For example, the more armor you put on a battleship, the slower it will be and the smaller the fuel bunkers to power it. Same goes with tanks. The less armor you put on it, the faster it'll go and the more armament you can fit them with, but you still have to be careful because the wrong power package can be incredibly wasteful of fuel. It has been said, often truthfully, that you'd get better mileage out of a barrel of avgas by dumping it on the ground rather than use it to fuel an Abrams. This has led to drivers having to be closely trained to not drive the vehicle at the maximum possible speed all the time.

 

[Vormaerin]

The speed and maneuverability issues are significantly less true in Traveller, with its space magic drives and its volumetric rather than mass based thrust calculations. Same with operational issues. The maneuverability and time on station functionally the same where you have a 250k pillbox or a 250k package of tissue paper.

Armor takes up space that could go to other systems. So there will be fewer weapons or some other element. Power demands for screens are the big issue with those, I believe. Too much power and weapon slots devoted to screens and point defense, you won't be able to hurt anyone.

You can argue that they should have maneuverability or operational duration issues, but the reality of the game system that J4 M6 is the same proportion of the ship no matter the size, so slow ponderous battleships and fast agile light vessels just isn't how Traveller ships work.

 

[CordwainerFish]

forthcoming ... Zhodani Consulate

And there was much rejoicing.

 

[boggo2300]

personally I think the answer to why is simple, to the Zhodani the Imperium is Evil, Pura and simple. possibly even from the 8th dimension

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, that's correct. You'd need thousands of screens to effectively counteract most meson guns. You can design a ship that's impervious to a meson weapon, but you'll be taking away from your ability to do much else.

Wait... Didn't We just determine that screens get applied before the multipliers?

 

[paltrysum]

Wait... Didn't We just determine that screens get applied before the multipliers?

No, it's after. This comes up occasionally, so we'll make sure it's written more clearly in future editions of High Guard.