No one said anything about bad writing. And I don't know what the rest of your sentence is supposed to be saying, but that's pretty common.
5FW: Why?
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
If they were smart, they'd make a dope deal with the Solomani, marshal their forces Spinward, and smash Zhodane once and for all. Or, they'd build networks of meson gun emplacements in many systems, and make an advance through the Spinward subsectors of the Spinward Marches a horrid fleet-devouring slog.
I mean, five frontier wars, how many times does the Imperium need to get slapped before they take the initiative for once?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
It is why I have all of the planets that are wealthy enough and of a high enough TL, have subterranean meson gun emplacements of maximum size. In the frontier areas where there is an obvious enemy anyhow...
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Absolutely, it's not like the Imperium doesn't have the money, and they have a century or two to build up between frontier wars. The Imperium could take it's time and make star systems into meson kill sacks. If the Zhodani fleets break through, then the Imperial Navy is ready and waiting.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
The Zhodani fleet would be destroyed before they could say, "Are we the baddies?"
I don't think they need to make a deal with the Solomani. The Corridor and Deneb Fleets are pretty substantial.
As far as how to build fortress worlds with the rules as written, I think that's kind of a windmill tilt. We know the rules don't work to replicate the fiction of the setting. I just assume that the the in universe people have built the best things for what's available. Because they would.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I just assume that it is due to writers who don't understand the rules of the universe they are writing for. They can write that FTL Communications are common, but if the rules do not reflect that, then they don't exist, no matter what a fluff writer writes.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If the Zhodani want the Imperium out of the Spinward Marches, then Corridor is where they should have expanded to and fortified that frontier.
Defending it would require the Imperium to expend, by the accepted ratio, three times more resources.
And, within a very narrow axis of advance.
Defending it would require the Imperium to expend, by the accepted ratio, three times more resources.
And, within a very narrow axis of advance.
I don't see why it has to be one or the other.
Major wars are almost never due to just one thing - and even allowing for the Rhylanor business, the four previous frontier wars had nothing to do with it. Those were territorial, but it's more like the tussles over the new world colonies between European powers (the Fourth Frontier War being over before news of it reaching Capital is straight out of that situation).
The Spinward Marches are a frontier for the Zho almost as much as they are for the Imps; bad decisions may get made by leadership on the ground by either side. The Ancient device makes a simple trigger excuse, but Zho high command would highly likely include Fourth Frontier War veterans, and probably there are always pro-War parties in the Zho government. Which it should be remembered is NOT a dictatorship, but a limited franchise democracy. Things can change depending on public opinion, or even because of particular councilors gaining power in the right (or wrong) subsector or provincial councils.
Major wars are almost never due to just one thing - and even allowing for the Rhylanor business, the four previous frontier wars had nothing to do with it. Those were territorial, but it's more like the tussles over the new world colonies between European powers (the Fourth Frontier War being over before news of it reaching Capital is straight out of that situation).
The Spinward Marches are a frontier for the Zho almost as much as they are for the Imps; bad decisions may get made by leadership on the ground by either side. The Ancient device makes a simple trigger excuse, but Zho high command would highly likely include Fourth Frontier War veterans, and probably there are always pro-War parties in the Zho government. Which it should be remembered is NOT a dictatorship, but a limited franchise democracy. Things can change depending on public opinion, or even because of particular councilors gaining power in the right (or wrong) subsector or provincial councils.
Talon Greyfeather
Banded Mongoose
A fair question - no snark taken.
Making up my own reason doesn't make it the 5FW - it's a war IM3I. Not completely opposed to that as there are things I don't use IM3I (Empress Wave, grandfather, the ancients - too much meta-game for me). There is a lot that I do use, and I like to stick to the 3I as much as possible. So far, nothing I have excluded has made that much of change (IMHO of course
). Maybe I've just been lucky with my players.So yes, I could create my own reason(s) for the Zhodani to start the war. I could even call it the 5FW. But something that is - or could be - such a fundamental game-changer for the 3I is turning into a mixed bag of resources. I feel I need to wait until everything is published before I can entertain how to work it into IM3I (which is my current plan).
Hope that helps to explain it.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
In re: subsurface meson emplacements
In my opinion, these emplacements are NOT a sure-fire defense. Other Mongoose 2e books point out the problems:
- Power. These gun emplacements use incredible amounts of power, especially if you're trying for a decent rate of fire. Fusion reactors emit a large amount of detectable neutrinos, especially considering the output range to power a planetary meson battery. It is logically obvious that power systems are gonna be the first targets in the ortillery crews' fire plan. The Solomani have begun placing meson guns in their territory powered by geothermal taps in an effort to minimize the neutrino signatures of their meson batteries, but this slows the rate of fire markedly.
- Sensors. These weapon batteries are useless without sensor systems to target their enemies. These sensors are FAR more vulnerable than the actual gun emplacement itself. It will be the job of intelligence operatives and, later, recon scouts to locate those sensor systems so they can be dealt with during the suppression barrages. If they can't see, they can't shoot, it's as simple as that.
I am NOT saying that meson emplacements are a waste of time. They are the most effective planetary defense system yet devised. I'm only saying that they've been around for over 1000 years and everybody knows what their vulnerabilities are. Some, like power, can be fixed if one is willing to accept the trade offs. Some, like sensors, are simply the nature of the beast and have to accepted.
In my opinion, these emplacements are NOT a sure-fire defense. Other Mongoose 2e books point out the problems:
- Power. These gun emplacements use incredible amounts of power, especially if you're trying for a decent rate of fire. Fusion reactors emit a large amount of detectable neutrinos, especially considering the output range to power a planetary meson battery. It is logically obvious that power systems are gonna be the first targets in the ortillery crews' fire plan. The Solomani have begun placing meson guns in their territory powered by geothermal taps in an effort to minimize the neutrino signatures of their meson batteries, but this slows the rate of fire markedly.
- Sensors. These weapon batteries are useless without sensor systems to target their enemies. These sensors are FAR more vulnerable than the actual gun emplacement itself. It will be the job of intelligence operatives and, later, recon scouts to locate those sensor systems so they can be dealt with during the suppression barrages. If they can't see, they can't shoot, it's as simple as that.
I am NOT saying that meson emplacements are a waste of time. They are the most effective planetary defense system yet devised. I'm only saying that they've been around for over 1000 years and everybody knows what their vulnerabilities are. Some, like power, can be fixed if one is willing to accept the trade offs. Some, like sensors, are simply the nature of the beast and have to accepted.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
I'm personally looking forward to the upcoming book on the Underdogs of the Imperium, the Imperial Army. They're the ones that'll end up doing most of the bleeding and the dying, after all, and they've been sorely ignored for 50 years.A fair question - no snark taken.
Making up my own reason doesn't make it the 5FW - it's a war IM3I. Not completely opposed to that as there are things I don't use IM3I (Empress Wave, grandfather, the ancients - too much meta-game for me). There is a lot that I do use, and I like to stick to the 3I as much as possible. So far, nothing I have excluded has made that much of change (IMHO of course
So yes, I could create my own reason(s) for the Zhodani to start the war. I could even call it the 5FW. But something that is - or could be - such a fundamental game-changer for the 3I is turning into a mixed bag of resources. I feel I need to wait until everything is published before I can entertain how to work it into IM3I (which is my current plan).
Hope that helps to explain it.
They never got the chance to expand that far. For most of the timeline the Zho were unaware of any of the Imperiums, and the Vilani never crossed into the Marches. As far as I can tell the Zho were colonising at the sedate and measured pace that they preferred.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Unless you are throwing really large rocks at the planet, what ortillery can penetrate several kilometers of planetary crust? Other than meson weapons, I am not aware of any weapon that can reach that deep. Why would they ever be able to find the Power Plants? Spend 50KCr per ton to wrap them in a hull, then spend 100KCr per ton to wrap them in Advanced Stealth. Between that and any TL differences, such as with the Aslan, they should be very, very hard to find. Meson Communications and about a million micro satellites with meson communicators in an irregular pattern around the system has your sensor needs covered. Although, if you went with the satellite network, you'd be better off going to about a million System Defense Bricks. Instantly immune to attack. Go somewhere else. lol. Even 100,000 of them with the meson sites backing them up would be very bad for anyone coming to cause trouble.
I would love it if the Imperial Army gets a book like the Imperial Navy. I'm less excited about a "force pool of the 5th Frontier war" book ala "Fleets of the War".
Granted, that will give us *some* information because we currently have none. We'll see. It may end up doing the job the Imperial Navy Sourcebook did, but since it's covering 4 nations AND doing the force pool thing, I don't think it'll be on the same level.
Meson guns, huh?
(Checks)
Countered by meson screens. But maybe the other guys don't have those. Maximum size Meson spinal does 6Dx10 damage, meson screens stop 2Dx10 each, so you'd need a battery of three or four.
(Checks)
Long range (25,000km). Less than a tenth of the distance from Earth to the Moon.
So. Just park in orbit at Very Long Range and start shooting with Particle weapons, missiles and torpedos. Or rocks, if you just need to kill cities.
To be honest, I think deep site meson installations would act as an *incentive* and excuse to glass the planet.
Or use 1999 or less ton landing craft, that spinal class weapons can't hit. Probably equipped with a meson screen or two for any small ones that can hit them.
(Checks)
Countered by meson screens. But maybe the other guys don't have those. Maximum size Meson spinal does 6Dx10 damage, meson screens stop 2Dx10 each, so you'd need a battery of three or four.
(Checks)
Long range (25,000km). Less than a tenth of the distance from Earth to the Moon.
So. Just park in orbit at Very Long Range and start shooting with Particle weapons, missiles and torpedos. Or rocks, if you just need to kill cities.
To be honest, I think deep site meson installations would act as an *incentive* and excuse to glass the planet.
Or use 1999 or less ton landing craft, that spinal class weapons can't hit. Probably equipped with a meson screen or two for any small ones that can hit them.
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
At the risk of cross posting with another thread, the Imperium are the bad guys. They are encroaching on Zhodani space, the Zhodani want a buffer zone. If the Imperium didn't expand the Zhodani would have no reason to push them back.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Some thoughts...
The Zhodani have clairvoyance for locating underground meson sites.
"they are psi shielded" you say.
So you aim at the psi shields...
If every underground meson site is an underground battleship that cuts into your budget for real battleships.
I'm starting to wish that Mongoose had done this FFW differently...
perhaps they should have released Three books upfront. The FFW source book, initial moves, and then armistice. Then they can have adventure supplement books detailing minor stuff, but give the referee the tools to actually run the whole war rather than follow MJDs tracks. This is all starting to feel very MegaTraveller like - sit back and read about what happens.
The Zhodani have clairvoyance for locating underground meson sites.
"they are psi shielded" you say.
So you aim at the psi shields...
If every underground meson site is an underground battleship that cuts into your budget for real battleships.
I'm starting to wish that Mongoose had done this FFW differently...
perhaps they should have released Three books upfront. The FFW source book, initial moves, and then armistice. Then they can have adventure supplement books detailing minor stuff, but give the referee the tools to actually run the whole war rather than follow MJDs tracks. This is all starting to feel very MegaTraveller like - sit back and read about what happens.
