5FW: Why?

[ottarrus]

1. The Zhodani don't want Imperial territory. They want to evict the Imperium from territory but don't want absorb that territory. They don't have time to do the major social engineering to convert 8 subsectors to The Zhodani Way. The Wave hits the Consulate in, what?, 100 years or so? They wouldn't be halfway done with all the disruption and displacement of trying to convert 3/4 of a sector of territory and billions of inhabitants. And while they do that, an entire Province will be in an uproar. What they want is a buffer zone between themselves and the Imperium's incessant expansion.
2. The Imperium isn't actively expanding. The Zhodani have made a major intelligence blunder by misjudging Imperial intentions in the region. My evidence of this:
- If the Imperium were actively expanding, District 268 would already be Imperial territory and Trexalon /Dist. 268 would have been visited by a dreadnought squadron as a warning of the consequences of resisting the Imperial Will.
- If the Imperium were in a conquering mood, the Sword Worlds would no longer exist and neither would the other major Outworld Coalition component, the Ekhile Ksafi ['40th Squadron'].
- If the Imperium was even in a less-tolerant mood, the IN would send a cruiser squadron to Arden /Vilis and shoot down every single satellite and work shack in orbit around that world as an expression of His Imperial Majesty's frustration at their anti-Imperial activities.
- The Imperium has been capable of doing all this, and more, since Arbellatra was Empress [that's 441 years...] and she has not done any of the above. The only worlds the Imperium has gained in that time have been gained in the peace settlements after being the defender in wars with the Zhodani.

But none of this has happened. The Imperium has demonstrably stopped expanding in the Archduchy of Deneb. And yet Zhodani foreign intelligence, the Tozjabr, has constantly fed the Supreme Council a litany of 'The Imperial Threat' to justify its existence and its funding. And this fundamental error has caused a major war.

 

[Sigtrygg]

1. The Zhodani don't want Imperial territory. They want to evict the Imperium from territory but don't want absorb that territory. They don't have time to do the major social engineering to convert 8 subsectors to The Zhodani Way. The Wave hits the Consulate in, what?, 100 years or so? They wouldn't be halfway done with all the disruption and displacement of trying to convert 3/4 of a sector of territory and billions of inhabitants. And while they do that, an entire Province will be in an uproar. What they want is a buffer zone between themselves and the Imperium's incessant expansion.

They see Imperial encroachment and don't want Imperial culture right on the doorstep. I can empathise with that.
Where the wave is in 1005 is open to interpretaion, it depends on the source, TNE or Don's et al FTL revision.

2. The Imperium isn't actively expanding. The Zhodani have made a major intelligence blunder by misjudging Imperial intentions in the region. My evidence of this:
- If the Imperium were actively expanding, District 268 would already be Imperial territory and Trexalon /Dist. 268 would have been visited by a dreadnought squadron as a warning of the consequences of resisting the Imperial Will.

This is another retcon of a retcon.
The original Spinward marches was a frontier for the Imperium and was still undergoing active colonisation and development.
Then comes the retcon that the SM has been colonised for a thousand years... and yet they didn't re-appraise District 268 and the other ccolony worlds. Why settle Regina a thousand years ago and then wait a thousand years to settle Forboldn?

- If the Imperium were in a conquering mood, the Sword Worlds would no longer exist and neither would the other major Outworld Coalition component, the Ekhile Ksafi ['40th Squadron'].

The Sword Wolds should not exist at all after they joined in frontier wars. The TL14 Imperial Navy should have crushed the TL11 Sword Worlds with barely a scratch.

- If the Imperium was even in a less-tolerant mood, the IN would send a cruiser squadron to Arden /Vilis and shot down every single satellite and work shack in orbit around that world as an expression of His Imperial Majesty's frustration at their anti-Imperial activities.

The Imperium learned a lesson from the Julians, don't start a war with a peer adversary.

- The Imperium has been capable of doing all this, and more, since Arbellatra was Empress [that's 441 years...] and she has not done any of the above. The only worlds the Imperium has gained in that time have been gained in the peace settlements after being the defender in wars with the Zhodani.

That's what happens when you retcon part of a setting without considering the unintended consequences.

But none of this has happened. The Imperium has demonstrably stopped expanding in the Archduchy of Deneb. And yet Zhodani foreign intelligence, the Tozjabr, has constantly fed the Supreme Council a litany of 'The Imperial Threat' to justify its existence and its funding. And this fundamental error has caused a major war.

The number of Imperial colony worlds in S:3 says the Imperium is still expanding... they are just doing it more slowly.

 

[Grognardia]

At this point I’d rather have the old school Traveller explanation:
“The Zhodani are coming because they’re Commie Space Wizards. Roll initiative.”

At least that was honest.

Instead, we get vague vibes, Ancient fridge-macguffins, and a war plan that makes zero strategic sense. If Rhylanor’s the goal, why not just drop psionic black ops and get it done? This whole campaign feels like a half-written novel where the villain forgot their motivation halfway through and just kept punching.

 

[ottarrus]

Sig, let's make this clear:
Mongoose Traveller 2e only has to be canon-consistent with itself. Even MegaTraveller isn't consistent with LBB Traveller. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, the Imperium has changed since 1980. That is the very definition of 'IMTU'. There is stuff published by the Keith Brothers and Digest Group that is in MY Traveller universe and I don't give a fig if Mongoose says different. But I'm not arguing My Traveller Universe. I'm only using what Mongoose Traveller has published in its Second Edition.
Saying 'that won't work in this edition because they said this back in the LBBs' is disingenuous. The Old Testament has been superseded for purposes of this board, and repeating it doesn't make it any more true.
We're discussing THIS Fifth Frontier War in THIS edition, not the last one. And my posts on this board are either clearly labelled IMTU or they discuss MgT2e as written.
In THIS edition of the 5FW, the entire Jewell Cluster, the single most fortified position in the Domain of Deneb, has fallen. The Zhos have isolated the interdiction fleet in Five Sisters and is striking directly at a fleet full of has-beens and never-were-gonna-be's in Glisten. The fleets in Vilis and Luinion have been driven back nearly an entire subsector's distance. The next logical strikes are Mora and Rhylenor, with a strike in Deneb Sector to draw off and delay the Deneb and Corridor Fleets.
All of this is entirely different from The Spinward Marches Campaign, but it is internally consistent with what's been published for this edition.

 

[Condottiere]

1. The Zhodani could have had half a dozen reasons to starts one or more wars with the Imperium.

2. All of them valid.

3. To start a war, you usually need a plurality of interest groups backing it.

4. You usually don't need to fortify the Home Islands, if your Navy has command of the approaches.

5. One issue that might arise, is that it's quite easy to turn the deep meson guns against surface targets.

6. Going by future events, the Corridor is less secure than one might assume.

 

[Arkathan]

A single man caused all of the wars. Arthur Fiat.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Meson guns, huh?

(Checks)
Countered by meson screens. But maybe the other guys don't have those. Maximum size Meson spinal does 6Dx10 damage, meson screens stop 2Dx10 each, so you'd need a battery of three or four.

6Dx10x1000 = An average of 210,000 points of damage after armor has been accounted for. (I know that meson guns do not interact with armor, but it says that screens go after armor.) A Meson Screen removes 2Dx10 or an average of 70 points of damage. Better get yourself several thousand meson screens.

Is My math wrong?

(Checks)
Long range (25,000km). Less than a tenth of the distance from Earth to the Moon.

Give them Extra Range to make their range VL

So. Just park in orbit at Very Long Range and start shooting with Particle weapons, missiles and torpedos. Or rocks, if you just need to kill cities.

Rocks are the one indefensible thing in Traveller.

To be honest, I think deep site meson installations would act as an *incentive* and excuse to glass the planet.

Or use 1999 or less ton landing craft, that spinal class weapons can't hit. Probably equipped with a meson screen or two for any small ones that can hit them.

Why would planet mounted meson weapons have that same issue with shooting at small ships? They are not mounted on a ship that is hard to turn. They are mounted on a turret that spins 360 degrees. Since they are not on a ship, that inaccuracy goes away.

 

[Nelphine]

Personally, I agree. If you're going to defend a planet well enough that I can't reasonably conquer it, for instance with numerous meson emplacement (assuming they can hit small craft), then I HAVE to glass it so that you don't build a fleet and attack me from behind. I can't keep most of my fleet there very long - I need to move on and take or defend more territory from your fleet.

Although I'll start with just wrecking your factories, and hope you get the message, so that I don't have to hurt the populace or resources.

 

[Terry Mixon]

6Dx10x1000 = An average of 210,000 points of damage after armor has been accounted for. (I know that meson guns do not interact with armor, but it says that screens go after armor.) A Meson Screen removes 2Dx10 or an average of 70 points of damage. Better get yourself several thousand meson screens.

Is My math wrong?

Give them Extra Range to make their range VL

Rocks are the one indefensible thing in Traveller.

Why would planet mounted meson weapons have that same issue with shooting at small ships? They are not mounted on a ship that is hard to turn. They are mounted on a turret that spins 360 degrees. Since they are not on a ship, that inaccuracy goes away.

I think that the difficulty hitting smaller vessels is more their nimble nature rather than the large ships that mount the spinal weapons.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sig, let's make this clear:

Ok, you have missed my point by a very long way, this has nothing to do with previous canon...

I didn't quote CT I quoted MgT...

Mongoose Traveller 2e only has to be canon-consistent with itself.

and therin lies the rub.
If they are sticking with Don's MgT reason for the FFW then this take on the FFW as outlined by MJD makes no sense whatsoever.
Nothing to do with CT, nothing to do with MT or TNE.

Even MegaTraveller isn't consistent with LBB Traveller.

Of this I am well aware, as well you know.

Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, the Imperium has changed since 1980.

And you have jumped to a conclusion not based on what I am discussing or arguing. The OTU is Mongoose's to use and abuse; is some consistency within its own canon too much to ask for.?
A full scale war that doesn't have a battle-fleet off Rhylanor within 10 weeks and a few battalions of agents already on the ground is stupid.

If Mongoose has gone with the Rhylanor maguffin as the reason for the FFW then it makes no sense to prosecute the war as it is being described.

Since we as yet don't know if the Rhylanor reason is the real reason then we are left to speculate based on MgT canon.

That is the very definition of 'IMTU'. There is stuff published by the Keith Brothers and Digest Group that is in MY Traveller universe and I don't give a fig if Mongoose says different. But I'm not arguing My Traveller Universe. I'm only using what Mongoose Traveller has published in its Second Edition.
Saying 'that won't work in this edition because they said this back in the LBBs' is disingenuous. The Old Testament has been superseded for purposes of this board, and repeating it doesn't make it any more true.

It is what is written in the only complete MgT Zhodani source book, the cut and paste that is the current 2e take on the Zhodani doesn't mention it. So are we to assume no MgT 1e material is now canon for the MgT OTU?

We're discussing THIS Fifth Frontier War in THIS edition, not the last one. And my posts on this board are either clearly labelled IMTU or they discuss MgT2e as written.

I am discussing this version, and if it is based on the only MgT canon we have.

In THIS edition of the 5FW, the entire Jewell Cluster, the single most fortified position in the Domain of Deneb, has fallen. The Zhos have isolated the interdiction fleet in Five Sisters and is striking directly at a fleet full of has-beens and never-were-gonna-be's in Glisten. The fleets in Vilis and Luinion have been driven back nearly an entire subsector's distance. The next logical strikes are Mora and Rhylenor, with a strike in Deneb Sector to draw off and delay the Deneb and Corridor Fleets.
All of this is entirely different from The Spinward Marches Campaign, but it is internally consistent with what's been published for this edition.

This has sod all to do with CT. This has sod all to do with the SMC. That is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that if the reason for the MgT FFW is the MgT Zhodani 1e canon then none of MJDs after action reports make any sense at all.

I also think it should have been released as three books up front - here is the overview, here is the initial activity and what the referee can now play with (at present we just get MJD's version, we have been promised player and referee influence on events), and here are the possible endgame events the referee can choose.

 

[Grognardia]

In THIS edition of the 5FW, the entire Jewell Cluster, the single most fortified position in the Domain of Deneb, has fallen. The Zhos have isolated the interdiction fleet in Five Sisters and is striking directly at a fleet full of has-beens and never-were-gonna-be's in Glisten. The fleets in Vilis and Luinion have been driven back nearly an entire subsector's distance. The next logical strikes are Mora and Rhylenor, with a strike in Deneb Sector to draw off and delay the Deneb and Corridor Fleets.

Personally, I don’t care how many times Jewell changed hands or whether the 214th Interdiction Squadron has line of sight to some backwater moon. If I wanted that level of detail, I’d just start wargaming and save myself the bother of pretending there’s a story.

Give me characters, stakes, and a bloody reason anyone’s fighting - not just more maps and military porn. You can wallpaper the sector with fleet arrows, but if no one knows why the hell anything’s happening, it’s still just Risk with meson guns.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think that the difficulty hitting smaller vessels is more their nimble nature rather than the large ships that mount the spinal weapons.

All it says is that you can't target them, but you can target the space that they are in. I am aware of no penalties for that. Same with using meson guns for orbital bombardment. You don't target the individual soldiers, you target the area that they are in.

 

[WHULorigan]

I'm personally looking forward to the upcoming book on the Underdogs of the Imperium, the Imperial Army. They're the ones that'll end up doing most of the bleeding and the dying, after all, and they've been sorely ignored for 50 years.

I would love it if the Imperial Army gets a book like the Imperial Navy.

I hope they do as well. I just hope they do the Imperial Army proper, as a TL14/15 Imperial Force, not as a hodge-podge collection of Member World Colonial Forces brigaded together. I have no problem with the Regimental system concept where individual member worlds recruit for the Imperial Army into their own respective individual "Regiments" for Imperial Service, but those particular regiments raised as "Imperial" Regiments should be distinct from the Colonial Forces, and trained & equipped to Imperial Standard of TL14/15 by Imperial Army command, even if they retain a distinctive local unit tradition and "Dress Uniform".

 

[WHULorigan]

The wave.
Rhylanor has an Ancient device that may stop it.
See MgT 1e Alien Module Zhodani. I really hope it has been retconned and the reason is once again to curtail Imperial expansion.

Because there is no way the Zhodani would fight the Frontier Wars the way they are presented if all they need to do is get to Rhylanor.

Has Mongoose ever made any of the various versions of the space magic armageddon wave an official thing?

I really hope that the 5FW isn't predicated on the Empress Wave. I was never fond of that bit of whatever in the first place.

. . . the Imperium are . . . encroaching on Zhodani space, the Zhodani want a buffer zone. If the Imperium didn't expand the Zhodani would have no reason to push them back.

Perhaps there is a simple way (a minor retcon of a retcon) to reconcile the two:

1. The 5FW was waged primarily for its original reasons (to curtail expansion and all the other usual excuses, and perhaps also the knowledge of the oncoming Wave and what preemptive actions that might require them to take for their security from resultant insane Imperials, etc);
2. During the progress of the War, Zhodani Intelligence Operatives become aware of the presence of the "device" on Rhylanor and either:
   • Shift strategy toward a new objective focused on taking Rhylanor, or
   • If the existence of the device is discovered during the siege of Rhylanor, perhaps it plays into the reason for the eventual Armistice

 

[Sigtrygg]

We already have the MgT 1e reason for the war:

"The Fourth Frontier War, or ‘False War’ (1082 to 1084) was triggered by a border incident and was fought by reflex: it ended in an armistice even before the Qlomdlabrcould receive news of the war and send orders to the front. However, Tozjabr operatives deep in Imperial territory on Rhylanor (2716 Tloql) to observe Imperial fleet movements, made a shocking discovery during the war ... there was a second Erdriap Chensh* – on Rhylanor. More interesting was the fact that the complex appeared from observation to be significantly larger than the original but the Erdriad Erdriap** already in Zhodani hands should still be able to control the function of the Erdriap Chensh on Rhylanor.

Some Nobles argued for seizing this opportunity to lay waste to Imperial territories for centuries but cooler heads prevailed. If this Erdriap Chensh was large enough, then the two together might help save the Consulate. But for that to happen, Rhylanor had to be in Zhodani hands.

The accidental deaths of two members of the Qlomdlabr standing committee in 1096 led to a sudden realignment of forces within the council, with a majority favouring action against the Imperium to seize Rhylanor. Long planned military and covert operations by the Tozjabr and the Zhodani Navy were approved to act as soon as necessary resources could be made available.

The decision for the final conflict with the Imperium has been made. On that gamble precariously rests the future
of the Zhodani culture." MgT1e Zhodani.

I hope that this has been retconned but as yet we have not been told.

 

[WHULorigan]

We already have the MgT 1e reason for the war:

"The Fourth Frontier War, or ‘False War’ (1082 to 1084) . . . , Tozjabr operatives deep in Imperial territory on Rhylanor (2716 Tloql) to observe Imperial fleet movements, made a shocking discovery during the war ... there was a second Erdriap Chensh* – on Rhylanor.
.....
The decision for the final conflict with the Imperium has been made. On that gamble precariously rests the future
of the Zhodani culture." MgT1e Zhodani.

I hope that this has been retconned but as yet we have not been told.

Yes. So my suggestion is that perhaps 4FW can be retconned to 5FW, and the discovery made during the conflict, rather than being the reason for it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The way I would do it.

The Zhodani know that their invasion force can not hold Rhylanor long enough.

The real plan is to get Norris in a position where he can be kidnapped.

Norris is shown the truth of the wave and is offered a deal - allow us Rhylanor access and we will make you hero of the war and help you become sector duke.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yes. So my suggestion is that perhaps 4FW can be retconned to 5FW, and the discovery made during the conflict, rather than being the reason for it.

Gives us something to do between 1110 and 1116

 

[WHULorigan]

Gives us something to do between 1110 and 1116

Rather than, "My how time flies; Where did this Rebellion come from?"

 

[Bense]

If you want your players to be in the middle of the war resolving it then no, we don't have enough information yet.

But if you're just using the war as a backdrop to whatever your players are doing then you can use the current materials just fine, or do one-shots with some of the published adventures.