Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Can't.
Actual board games on tables with scenarios that can't be handled in a single locked-door session turn out to be incompatible with cats. Same problem with 1000 piece puzzles.
I'd have to make a virtual copy.
5FW: Why?
- Thread starter Vormaerin
- Start date
Actual board games on tables with scenarios that can't be handled in a single locked-door session turn out to be incompatible with cats. Same problem with 1000 piece puzzles.
I'd have to make a virtual copy.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
Tabletop Simulator or Vassal Engine?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Okay, cool. Thanks for the clarification.
collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
There has been a Vassal module for FFW for many years. I've played opponents virtually with it. It is perfect for a monster game like FFW that takes months to play.
Module:Fifth Frontier War - Vassal
Don't rule it out just because you don't get to have fun: it can be a lot of fun for the cats!
Mistakes were made by a few of us about the Meson Spinals, but it is clear that one gunner with one screen CAN stop one spinal mount, although they'd need to be lucky vs the biggest ones, or be using several screens. And if they flub their angle screens roll, the ship is always in trouble.
That seems fair.
A further observation, which is the sort of thing that will need to be looked at for any future capital ship rules, is that each smaller Meson weapon needs the same defence. At least one gunner and one screen.
Those are likely to be defeated, and don't hurt a big ship anywhere near as much, but a Tigress only carries 7 meson screens. It would seem to be vulnerable to a group of meson cruisers. The eighth or more attack in a salvo is going to strike unopposed in the rules as written, unless I'm missing something.
But maybe that's as intended. Part of the interplay of fleet combat and the strategy of squadron design?
That seems fair.
A further observation, which is the sort of thing that will need to be looked at for any future capital ship rules, is that each smaller Meson weapon needs the same defence. At least one gunner and one screen.
Those are likely to be defeated, and don't hurt a big ship anywhere near as much, but a Tigress only carries 7 meson screens. It would seem to be vulnerable to a group of meson cruisers. The eighth or more attack in a salvo is going to strike unopposed in the rules as written, unless I'm missing something.
But maybe that's as intended. Part of the interplay of fleet combat and the strategy of squadron design?
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
In theory, an enemy cruiser squadron should have been blocked by the Tigress's escorts, so that it can concentrate what it's supposed to do, take out the opposing line of battle starwarships.
So the basic issue is that it is an intentional game design element that in fleet combat, ships go "boom!". While the fiction is filled with long, indecisive battles and with ships taking massive punishment, that isn't what the game mechanics are designed to result in. They wanted a relatively fast resolution system so defenses are rarely competitive with offense and ships are flying death traps for those on them.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
The published ships designs do not follow the current version of High Guard. 7 Meson Screens do nothing except remove the Radiation trait from a meson spinal. 7x12x10=840 points of damage absorbed and the Radiation trait is removed. 6x1,000=6,000 points of damage. 6,000-840=5,160 point of damage get through. This is a minimum strike from the smallest meson spinal against 7 meson screens with max damage rolls.
You're missing a critical step. Actually two steps.
The biggest meson does 60D (or 6Dx10 as it's usually rolled) plus gunner's effect bonus damage. A screen does 2Dx10 for each screen used MULTIPLIED by the gunner's effect number (p.41)
After that, if there are any remaining damage points, they're multiplied by 1000.
So by my calculation, the maxiumum damage that can be generated is 360 plus effect. Let's call that 366 preliminary damage points.
One gunner with one screen rolling an average 7 generates 70 points, so would need about 5 screens to block most of it. Or an effect number of 5. Or a better roll.
Average rolls: meson does 210 points, 2 screens with an effect 2 will block it. Or some other achievable combo.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
@paltrysum is one of the writers. He says that it is multiplied by 1,000 first, then the screens are applied. He said they would make it more clear in future updates to High Guard.
Well, special insider information aside, p.29 is pretty explicit and specific that spinal mount damage multiples apply after other countermeasures are applied.
One final thought: how did things work in previous editions? Meson screens were pointless? Or did they give the ship a chance of survival?
One final thought: how did things work in previous editions? Meson screens were pointless? Or did they give the ship a chance of survival?
I looked it up.
High Guard (1980):
Maximum meson (Factor T) vs minimum screen (factor 1)... after hitting, needs a 2D6 roll of 1+ to penetrate, with relative computers sizes as modifiers.
If the defenses are the maximum of factor 9, the roll is 5+.
But also, every battery that fires is automatically screened, and configuration may provide a better defense, which is quite different to Mongoose.
However... even the Tigress does not carry a maxium size meson gun (in Mongoose. It does in CT. But it also only has Meson screen value of 3 in CT...which does make it effectively immune to factor 9 or smaller mesons, which means all bay sized ones). The screens it carries may be appropriate for the ships it expects to face. And I would NOT expect it to be closing to planetary meson battery range under any circumstances.
High Guard (1980):
Maximum meson (Factor T) vs minimum screen (factor 1)... after hitting, needs a 2D6 roll of 1+ to penetrate, with relative computers sizes as modifiers.
If the defenses are the maximum of factor 9, the roll is 5+.
But also, every battery that fires is automatically screened, and configuration may provide a better defense, which is quite different to Mongoose.
However... even the Tigress does not carry a maxium size meson gun (in Mongoose. It does in CT. But it also only has Meson screen value of 3 in CT...which does make it effectively immune to factor 9 or smaller mesons, which means all bay sized ones). The screens it carries may be appropriate for the ships it expects to face. And I would NOT expect it to be closing to planetary meson battery range under any circumstances.
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The Mongoose HG rules for screens need to be completely re-written, as they are they are far too un-intuitive, very badly explained, and don't match any previous information.
I personally would go with a meson screen behaving like armour vs meson guns with the value of the screen depending on TL and energy input, with different size screen installations availble at each TL that has certain maximums for that tonnage of screen.
This is the starting point - *actual AV needs to be balanced with meson gun damage, **EP input needs to be rebalanced with MgT power plant outputs, hull coefficient is a combination of hull displacement and configuration
I personally would go with a meson screen behaving like armour vs meson guns with the value of the screen depending on TL and energy input, with different size screen installations availble at each TL that has certain maximums for that tonnage of screen.
| Tech Level | AV m * | Tonnage | energy** | cost |
| 12 | 1 | 90 | AV x (hull coef.)*** | 80 |
| 13 | 1-2 | 30 | AV x (hull coef.) | 50 |
| 13 | 1-3 | 45 | AV x (hull coef.) | 55 |
| 14 | 1-4 | 16 | AV x (hull coef.) | 40 |
| 14 | 1-5 | 20 | AV x (hull coef.) | 45 |
| 14 | 1-6 | 24 | AV x (hull coef.) | 50 |
| 15 | 1-7 | 20 | AV x (hull coef.) | 40 |
| 15 | 1-8 | 30 | AV x (hull coef.) | 50 |
| 15 | 1-9 | 40 | AV x (hull coef.) | 60 |
This is the starting point - *actual AV needs to be balanced with meson gun damage, **EP input needs to be rebalanced with MgT power plant outputs, hull coefficient is a combination of hull displacement and configuration
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Yup. I can't figure them out.
I suppose I could with very detailed study, a flow chart, and an erasable writing utensil, but that's far from the intuitive, or at least concrete, nature of other design decisions.
But for that matter, the multiplier effect of various levels of turret/bay/spinal systems is also an extra layer, where a simpler system would be, for instance: "A plasma gun is available at TL11 in turrets, barbettes, and bays; it does 3D damage, requires 6 power, MCr2.5, and has Medium range." And then just have a constant multiplier for damage, power, and cost applied for various sized weapons. Want something fancier? Then apply Advanced/Prototype rules to the result. Then you could scale screens the same way (maybe just the three bay sizes) and it might make more sense, directly comparing the same sorts of multipliers. But that's just my one coffee idea of the morning...
ross
Banded Mongoose
My current series McGuffin (or McGoohan if you’re inclined) is a Zhodani family, a lost Scion, and Imperium propaganda that has revealed that the entire history of the Zhodani hostilities is based on complete fabrication by the Imperium Navy and Intelligence Services. Anyway, that’s another story…
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Layering effect.
Pretty narrow focus, if it has to account for each different meson beam.
Also, how do you shift them about, or do they just come into existence?
Pretty narrow focus, if it has to account for each different meson beam.
Also, how do you shift them about, or do they just come into existence?
CT they just exist and are always in effect while powered; roll to hit, roll to penetrate. Relative computer value affected both rolls, so was especially important. Configuration mattered.
Mongoose they fall under the new and exciting Angle Screens concept (which might have come from an edition prior to MGT, not sure) of gunners actively making skill rolls to block things. Buuuut... that's sort of squadron and solo ship level stuff. Book 2 level.
I realised that we're comparing apples to oranges a bit. CT very much assumes that meson screens aren't for regular folk, it's a navy thing. I'm not aware of any Book 2 space combat rules for use of mesons.
The Mongoose equivalent to CT High Guard's combat system is the Fleet Battles section (p 105). That DOES have meson screens operating against any incoming attack, so I feel that what is probably intended is that at the individual ship level you need one gunner to try to block one attack, but that all screen gunners on a ship can use all the meson screens installed.
(Edit - maybe not. See my later post)
Mongoose they fall under the new and exciting Angle Screens concept (which might have come from an edition prior to MGT, not sure) of gunners actively making skill rolls to block things. Buuuut... that's sort of squadron and solo ship level stuff. Book 2 level.
I realised that we're comparing apples to oranges a bit. CT very much assumes that meson screens aren't for regular folk, it's a navy thing. I'm not aware of any Book 2 space combat rules for use of mesons.
The Mongoose equivalent to CT High Guard's combat system is the Fleet Battles section (p 105). That DOES have meson screens operating against any incoming attack, so I feel that what is probably intended is that at the individual ship level you need one gunner to try to block one attack, but that all screen gunners on a ship can use all the meson screens installed.
(Edit - maybe not. See my later post)
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collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
Thanks for pointing that out. I was about to post myself that people seem to be ignoring the Fleet Battles rules for meson screens. Nobody but a fool is going to be using the standard battle rules for even squadron sized engagements.
And the final piece of the puzzle that I missed on first read of the MGT2e22 High Guard fleet combat rules.
The ship gets a Meson defence *pool* determined from crew value and number of screens (A Tigress has one of 315). Spinal mount weapons alone in Fleet Combat need to roll to hit (everything else is just done with massed fire attack values vs defense values), non-mesons apply their value vs armour and then apply the multiplier to any points that get through.
With mesons, the ship applies however many points from its pool to incoming meson hits as it wants to, then any remaining damage points get their multiplier applied. Pool refreshes at the start of each turn (although I guess screens can be damaged and the value may drop between turns due to that).
So... it matches up with the non-Fleet method. Screens are a finite resource and can be nibbled away or overwhelmed. But in a big ship with lots of screens and gunners it's a bit more reliable, which feels fine to me.
The ship gets a Meson defence *pool* determined from crew value and number of screens (A Tigress has one of 315). Spinal mount weapons alone in Fleet Combat need to roll to hit (everything else is just done with massed fire attack values vs defense values), non-mesons apply their value vs armour and then apply the multiplier to any points that get through.
With mesons, the ship applies however many points from its pool to incoming meson hits as it wants to, then any remaining damage points get their multiplier applied. Pool refreshes at the start of each turn (although I guess screens can be damaged and the value may drop between turns due to that).
So... it matches up with the non-Fleet method. Screens are a finite resource and can be nibbled away or overwhelmed. But in a big ship with lots of screens and gunners it's a bit more reliable, which feels fine to me.
