5FW: Why?

[Vormaerin]

Not sure why I need any of these arrows and battleship schematics to run "there's a war on and stuff's happening for some reason that only matters to NPCs".

If you have PCs with a starship and they aren't involved in the war, the sensible thing for them to do is to head towards Deneb or the Reach Sector and just stay out of the way.

"Deciding the winner" is not necessarily anything the PCs need to be doing. But what they are probably doing is tangling with spies and spec ops and other things. And it would help to know WHY the zhodani are doing this so you can have reasonable schemes that the PCs could be involved with and are important, even if they aren't decisive.

Also keeps you in frame for future releases if you know the likely endgame and are running ahead of publication.

 

[Grognardia]

We certainly don't need more pages and pages like this

 

[MasterGwydion]

If you want your players to be in the middle of the war resolving it then no, we don't have enough information yet.

But if you're just using the war as a backdrop to whatever your players are doing then you can use the current materials just fine, or do one-shots with some of the published adventures.

Right now, I use the published FFW material as backdrop, since we only have the whos, the wheres, and the hows. We do not have the whys. I also use the material in the FFW books to give Me a better idea of how the different polity organize their navies and how they go to war. It gives Me some worldbuilding material which I love, but it doesn't let Me write campaigns effectively the FFW, because I do not know the whys

 

[MasterGwydion]

We certainly don't need more pages and pages like this

View attachment 4258

Personally, this should be in a book like the Imperial Navy book. Give Us a Zhodani Navy book. Show Us how different they are from the Imperial Navy. A Naval Forces of the Clans. Show Us how exactly Aslan vessels function with their strict divisions of labor and rank structure. Show Us what an Aslan Clan fleet, such as the one that wiped out the Kingdom of Drinax, might look like. Give Us what the default Squadrons look like and then in the FFW book, just tell Us which were involved. That would take up all of a page, freeing up tons of room for more "whys" that We extrapolate from and can build adventures and campaigns around.

 

[dragon3r]

The Zhodani engage the Third Imperium in wars to stop the Imperium's expansion. They're well aware of the economic might the Imperium can bring to bear and have long feared a society 'where thieves and psychopaths not only run loose, but are allowed to lead!'
There are some remarkably Vilani traits to Zhodani culture, especially where social stability and controlled change are concerned. The Nobles wish for slow, sedate, managed change where necessary and rigidly hold on to their traditions where change is not necessary. And all of Zhodani society is constructed with this in mind. The rampant and uncontrolled populace of the Imperium frightens the Zhodani, bringing back memories of their two Dark Ages.
With these factors in mind, conflict is inevitable on the Imperial Zhodani border, 'conflict' being defined as all types of cultural clashing not just or only warfare. Philosophical, scientific, artistic, all venues of Human endeavor are grist for the mill in these stuggles. To some extent there seems to be a Zhodani strategic goal of maintaining the borders by starting a war every few generations 'to bleed the pressure off'.
I think it is also germane to note that the Zhos have a penchant to go to war with the Imperium within about 100 or so years of the beginning of a Core Expedition.

I had a similar conversation with Don when he was writing the module for 1e, prior in CT it was simply the war of the Ego vs the Id (like in The Forbidden Planet); and that the Zhodani saw the Imperium as a cancer: ravenous and uncontrolled. They slowly build forces, and when enough, attack; rather ineptly. This is only matched by the Emperor purposely keeping Imperial forces in the Marches weak, so as to not have a repeat of what had happened earlier, the capital being marched upon by the victorious fleet from the First Frontier War. https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Olav

 

[Condottiere]

A variant of Manchurian Candidate.

 

[Endie]

In re: subsurface meson emplacements
In my opinion, these emplacements are NOT a sure-fire defense.

I’m not 100% in agreement with your further reasoning, but I do agree that Space Maginot Line is a bad idea.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I’m not 100% in agreement with your further reasoning, but I do agree that Space Maginot Line is a bad idea.

History has shown Us that static defenses can be overcome no matter what they are given time and willpower. So, I agree.

Static Defenses as part of a larger defensive strategy, most definitely a good idea.

 

[Vormaerin]

We certainly don't need more pages and pages like this

View attachment 4258

I find that stuff interesting in a theoretical way. I did grow up reading books like The Imperial Japanese Navy and The Two Ocean War. And it was useful in a few forum discussions.

But its relevance to anything that actually happens during a game? Approximately zero. Even if I was running an Honor Harrington game, I'm not sure that would be all that useful and that's not my jam.

 

[ottarrus]

Ok, you have missed my point by a very long way, this has nothing to do with previous canon...

I didn't quote CT I quoted MgT...

and therin lies the rub.
If they are sticking with Don's MgT reason for the FFW then this take on the FFW as outlined by MJD makes no sense whatsoever.
Nothing to do with CT, nothing to do with MT or TNE.

Of this I am well aware, as well you know.

And you have jumped to a conclusion not based on what I am discussing or arguing. The OTU is Mongoose's to use and abuse; is some consistency within its own canon too much to ask for.?
A full scale war that doesn't have a battle-fleet off Rhylanor within 10 weeks and a few battalions of agents already on the ground is stupid.

If Mongoose has gone with the Rhylanor maguffin as the reason for the FFW then it makes no sense to prosecute the war as it is being described.

Since we as yet don't know if the Rhylanor reason is the real reason then we are left to speculate based on MgT canon.

It is what is written in the only complete MgT Zhodani source book, the cut and paste that is the current 2e take on the Zhodani doesn't mention it. So are we to assume no MgT 1e material is now canon for the MgT OTU?

I am discussing this version, and if it is based on the only MgT canon we have.

This has sod all to do with CT. This has sod all to do with the SMC. That is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that if the reason for the MgT FFW is the MgT Zhodani 1e canon then none of MJDs after action reports make any sense at all.

I also think it should have been released as three books up front - here is the overview, here is the initial activity and what the referee can now play with (at present we just get MJD's version, we have been promised player and referee influence on events), and here are the possible endgame events the referee can choose.

With all possible respect, you routinely refer back to older editions in your arguments about this or that issue.
I do, however, appreciate you clearing up your thesis. As you know, we all tend to digress more than a little bit and bringing things back to the point is sometimes necessary.
I personally am NOT taking MgT1e's Zhodani book as the basis of the 5th FW; I've chosen the MgT2e 'Aliens of Charted Space vol. 1'. In that source no mention is made of the 'magic rock in Rhylenor' theory. [And I'm on record as saying the whole 'magic rock' thing is pretty simplistic and rather childish.]

 

[Geir]

Not a great fan of the Magic Rock theory (or the Wave for the matter), But I would point out that if your strategic goal was to capture and hold Rhylanor (although, you'd think a series of diplomatic meetings to address the GIANT WAVE OF DOOM HEADING RIGHT FOR ALL OF US!!!! would be a more rational approach to the dilemma) then the last thing you want to do is telegraph that goal by focusing all your forces on a drive straight towards your target.

With the times and delays involved, feints and misdirection should precede a well-orchestrated campaign to take the system (or just the world) and hold it for long enough to do the Magic Incarnation. Of course, I've already pointed out that a strictly military approach to the problem might not be the smartest strategy.

Or, if all you need is a squad of Psions in a chamber deep beneath the surface to perform the Magic Ritual and activate demonstrate the effect, then the whole war thing with millions of causalities and trillions of credits (or Zhodani Psi chits or whatever they use) seems to be a misguided use of resources.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[Condottiere]

(Static) defences are a force multiplier.

They tend to encourage detours.

Placed strategically, usually into a battlefield of the defender's choosing.

 

[rinku]

6Dx10x1000 = An average of 210,000 points of damage after armor has been accounted for. (I know that meson guns do not interact with armor, but it says that screens go after armor.) A Meson Screen removes 2Dx10 or an average of 70 points of damage. Better get yourself several thousand meson screens.

Is My math wrong?

Give them Extra Range to make their range VL

Rocks are the one indefensible thing in Traveller.

Why would planet mounted meson weapons have that same issue with shooting at small ships? They are not mounted on a ship that is hard to turn. They are mounted on a turret that spins 360 degrees. Since they are not on a ship, that inaccuracy goes away.

Ah. I misread how the screens work. I thought their effect was applied to the preliminary damage, not the final amount. Although once we're up to battleships and dreadnaughts, they do actually have the tonnage to consider a few thousand screens. It is possible to build a counter meson battery assault ship. Even one successful screen will remove the radiation though.

EDIT: Read p.29. Damage multiples are indeed applied after the effect of countermeasures.

Particle weapons can also be given extra range. Missiles and torpedoes already don't have any problem hitting a planet from Distant. To be frank, I'd think that's the quick and easy option. A kinetic impact torpedo moving at those speeds is going to be practically impossible to point defense, and will be taking out chunks of city with every hit. Much more surgical than a rock. And much much cheaper than a big meson battery.

I disagree regarding evading the small ship limitation. A movable mount for something that large in an underground factility isn't likely to be able to rotate any quicker than a ship in space. But you do YTU.

 

[Condottiere]

That's why you have prediction programmes.

Also, atmospheric interference.

 

[rinku]

Oh, I have no doubt lasers can *hit* the super hypersonic incoming death missiles. Sometimes.
But can they pump enough photons into the dense mass of metal to vaporise it in the tiny fraction of a second it's in range before it hits? Maybe not so much.

For the purposes of this, atmosphere isn't going to matter, unless you meant in terms of degrading the meson beam. Tunguska.

And probably worth noting that as the target is not under thrust, the missile both has an easier time of hitting it, and can potentially use some of its own thrust on evasion (although I don't know that that's specifically addressed in the rules).

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ah. I misread how the screens work. I thought their effect was applied to the preliminary damage, not the final amount. Although once we're up to battleships and dreadnaughts, they do actually have the tonnage to consider a few thousand screens. It is possible to build a counter meson battery assault ship. Even one successful screen will remove the radiation though.

EDIT: Read p.29. Damage multiples are indeed applied after the effect of countermeasures.

Well crap! That makes meson weapons nearly useless. The fluff says, "Spinal weapons are specifically designed to deliver knockout blows against the largest vessels and surface installations."

I guess the writers need to check the rules. A handful of Meson Screens now defeats the largest and most fearsome shipborne weapons in Charted Space.

Smallest Meson Spinal Mount 7,500-tons, 6D of damage, 2GCr, 1,000 power, 75 gunners

Meson Screens 180-tons, 36D of absoption (total), 360MCr, 540 power, 1 gunner

Largest Meson Spinal Mount 75,000-tons, 60D of damage, 20GCr, 10,000 power, 750 gunners

Mesons Screens 1,800-tons, 360D of absoption (total), 3.6GCr, 5,400 power, 1 gunner

1,800-tons out of a Battleship or a Dreadnaught is not bad to be completely immune to Meson Weapons unless ganged up on, but you can add a few extra gunners since most ships are not carrying maxed out meson spinals.

I disagree regarding evading the small ship limitation. A movable mount for something that large in an underground factility isn't likely to be able to rotate any quicker than a ship in space. But you do YTU.

Why wouldn't it? In space there is nothing for the ship to push against to turn quickly. It is like stopping a boat by reversing the engine. Underground, it is attached to the ground. Crash a boat into the ground and it stops much more quickly. Also, remember that ships only produce 25% of their thrust to the sides which is where the force for turning comes from.

 

[rinku]

Well, there is also the problem with maybe needing several screens to negate each of the big ray guns. The defenses appear to be able to be overwhelmed with sufficient saturation of fire. That is definitely relevant for the deep batteries, since the number installed is only limited by budget.

And... the Gunner multiplies the screen value by the effect of their Angle Screens roll. So one screen might be able to block even the biggest meson spinal (or not).

But... if the gunner FAILS to make their Angle Screens roll... Boom. Regardless of how many screens they were controlling. So I think the effectiveness of the BFG is still there.

In regards to rotation, spaceships can rotate very quickly using attitude jets, for example one near the bow thrusting port and one near the stern thrusting starboard, then firing the reverse to halt the rotation. It's got little to do with the main drive. In addition, the rotation needed at range is miniscule, but that applies equally to ship or battery, so is a common factor.

I'm of the opinion this is simpler and easier to do in freefall than when working at the bottom of a gravity well, but who can actually say? So much of it depends on hypothetical tech - thruster plates, gravitic control etc. Simpler to just go with what the rules say and limit spinal mount targets to 2000 ton hulls and larger.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, there is also the problem with maybe needing several screens to negate each of the big ray guns. The defenses appear to be able to be overwhelmed with sufficient saturation of fire. That is definitely relevant for the deep batteries, since the number installed is only limited by budget.

And... the Gunner multiplies the screen value by the effect of their Angle Screens roll. So one screen might be able to block even the biggest meson spinal (or not).

But... if the gunner FAILS to make their Angle Screens roll... Boom. Regardless of how many screens they were controlling. So I think the effectiveness of the BFG is still there.

This is why I like Robot Brain gunners. They can be built to almost never fail an Angle Screens check.

In regards to rotation, spaceships can rotate very quickly using attitude jets, for example one near the bow thrusting port and one near the stern thrusting starboard, then firing the reverse to halt the rotation. It's got little to do with the main drive. In addition, the rotation needed at range is miniscule, but that applies equally to ship or battery, so is a common factor.

I think you and I have very different definitions of "attitude jets". Flipping a 1,000-ton ship would require some good Reaction Drives as your "jets". How many Gs is the bridge experiencing since it is not using it's M-Drive to turn? I figure a few 2 million horsepower electric motors for moving in all 3 directions would be much faster. Think about it, the "turret" that the meson gun is in increases the total size by 4 times. 75,000-ton of meson gun, moved by 225,000-tons of "turret".

I'm of the opinion this is simpler and easier to do in freefall than when working at the bottom of a gravity well, but who can actually say? So much of it depends on hypothetical tech - thruster plates, gravitic control etc. Simpler to just go with what the rules say and limit spinal mount targets to 2000 ton hulls and larger.

 

[rinku]

You're only rotating the ship by a degree or so if you're shooting at 1,000's of kilometres, let alone Long range. Not "flipping" it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You're only rotating the ship by a degree or so if you're shooting at 1,000's of kilometres, let alone Long range. Not "flipping" it.

Every time you change targets you are changing by more than just a degree or so.