10 Sagg fleet, Mythbusted?
- Thread starter Reaverman
- Start date
Burger said:
Are the pictures at the beginning or end of the movement phase of the turn? That would make a difference as to how you maneuver. There is at least 1 Sag that appears to have a really good shot at getting out of arc, as well as one that could likely all stop and not be in arc as well. Also, you are faster than the Vorlon - Speed 6 Vs. Speed 5. If you had set up perpendicular to the Vorlon, there would have been know way he could have got the 2nd heavy weapon on the Vorlon CA in range.
Dave
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
Actually I think the issue is in Turn 1. By having the whole fleet turn in the same direction - away from the Vorlons - it makes it easy for the Vorlon player to keep everything in his front arc.Burger said:
If you'd had half the fleet turn as you did in Turn 1 and the other half in the other direction, by the time you got to turn 2, the Vorlon could only target one group or the other.
Then, through the judicious use of APtE and smart turning I believe one could get out the F arc and/or get beyond the 24" range of its lightning cannon. You wouldn't have been able to keep all ships out of the F arc all the time, but you could control to some extent what he ends up shooting at.
The pics are at the end of the movement phase.
The Vorlon consistently destroyed 1 Sag per turn. So, half of them being behind him wouldn't matter. There'd still be one to fire at each turn, and I would've died in the same time.
And every time I APtE or All Stop, I lose my firepower, whereas he still has his self-repair. With my rapidly dwindling Sag numbers, this is a Bad Thing (tm). Sorry I don't think either of these suggestions would have worked.
The Vorlon consistently destroyed 1 Sag per turn. So, half of them being behind him wouldn't matter. There'd still be one to fire at each turn, and I would've died in the same time.
And every time I APtE or All Stop, I lose my firepower, whereas he still has his self-repair. With my rapidly dwindling Sag numbers, this is a Bad Thing (tm). Sorry I don't think either of these suggestions would have worked.
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
If we're working with the assumption of the scenario conditions and withdrawing as you've pointed out then no, getting behind and limiting targets of the HC wouldn't make a difference. But you asked and those were the suggestions. Moot point since the focus has shifted from 'destroy the enemy completely' to 'destroy 5 ships and jump out'.Burger said:
Geekybiker
Mongoose
Reaverman said:
I wasnt trying to say Burger was dumb. As for the sag fleet being a no brainer, it can been played well or poorly. The offensive use of the sag fleet isnt exactly hard, you're right there. The skill come in more with exploiting the weaknesses of your enemy so that he can rarely bring his full firepower against you. Vorlons that means getting into and staying in the rear arc. While Burger may have tried to do that, ultimately I think it could have been done better as others have suggested.
And since the focus has changed how about destroy his destroyer and just APtE out of range? As long as he doesn't kill two of you he doesn't win.
Or how about not firing on some turns to get better position for the following turns. There is no reason you have to fire every turn. His self-repair is good but not enough that it can overcome even half you Sags firing every turn with less optimal arcs.
And last, how did he get range with his eighteen inch gun? the tourney HC does have a 24 and an 18 right? could be wrong there, but it seems to me with your speed and ability to fire sideways you control the range to a large degree. You may not fire every turn to maintain that range as you may be stuck with in a slowloading arc but sitll.
I am not saying you did not play the best you could at the time, but you admit your not familiar with the fleet. Do you honestly believe that you got the best game possible on your first try? I do not know a fleet out there I have not done much better with after a bit of practice working out where to start and how to manuver.
Ripple
Or how about not firing on some turns to get better position for the following turns. There is no reason you have to fire every turn. His self-repair is good but not enough that it can overcome even half you Sags firing every turn with less optimal arcs.
And last, how did he get range with his eighteen inch gun? the tourney HC does have a 24 and an 18 right? could be wrong there, but it seems to me with your speed and ability to fire sideways you control the range to a large degree. You may not fire every turn to maintain that range as you may be stuck with in a slowloading arc but sitll.
I am not saying you did not play the best you could at the time, but you admit your not familiar with the fleet. Do you honestly believe that you got the best game possible on your first try? I do not know a fleet out there I have not done much better with after a bit of practice working out where to start and how to manuver.
Ripple
Because I out deployed his fleet, he could not predict which arc my destoyer would appear in.
Because if you dont use it, and it dies, you would have wasted a least some chance of keeping that self repair down.
48"x48" board. Deploy 12" in, 12" on the table. First turn, APtE. Giving the ships an effective kill zone of 32"/26". So its possible to hit a ship in the first turn, and definetly the second turn.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Killing the Destroyer doesnt necessarily help. Ive used a similar version of that Vorlon fleet but with 2 Transports instead of the Destroyer. Sure theyre shorter ranged, BUT. They combine to give more firepower and survivability than the single destroyer, are faster and more manueverable (which helps them do the job of escorting the big boy better) and they work as TWO initiative sinks rather than just one. Its actually a VERY hard fleet to beat at 5 pt raid and I think, nastier than the Hvy + Destroyer version (the key is that the Transports are not supposed to assist the heavy in engaging the enemy but merely to stay back as initiative sinks and keep their guns trained on the Heavy Cruiser's blind spot in case anything tries to sneak in behind it.
Twin-Linked Aldades
Mongoose
Well, after almost 2 years of continuously playing, i do tend to say that 99% of the games is fought out in a close quarter brawl of about 15" on 15" (WS`s and Drazi excluded most of the time) from turn 2 on...
Hmmm...
Okay, make sure I understand this one. The Vorlon sets up twelve inches into the table, APtE seven and a half inches on turn one. HC is now nineteen and one half inches into the table, with discharge gun reaching thirty seven and one half across and the lightning cannon reaching forty-three and one half inches across. So it's just as possible he could have set up on the wall, half moved to get the CAF and fired only his front missles into the HC (or side if he chose a run and gun set up) while out of range of either. Even setting up six inches into the table he could have taken a half move turned forty five degrees to bring the sides to bear and stayed out of range while getting range himself.
Guess the point was he could have manipulated the range better given you have all guns firing from turn one. He in effect, gave up the entire initiative sink benefit of going last and taking full advantage of the range advantage he had. At the least he should have been outside discharge gun range.
The four foot by four foot table does present a small issue with running out the length tactics. Sure most furballs happen to one side but ships that fire sideways can do the run and gun thing on a longer table. Eh... could go either way on this one, but does explain the Sharlin fight where I didn't understand starting more to the side. The Ka'Tocs effectively occupied the whole length of the board.
Ripple
Okay, make sure I understand this one. The Vorlon sets up twelve inches into the table, APtE seven and a half inches on turn one. HC is now nineteen and one half inches into the table, with discharge gun reaching thirty seven and one half across and the lightning cannon reaching forty-three and one half inches across. So it's just as possible he could have set up on the wall, half moved to get the CAF and fired only his front missles into the HC (or side if he chose a run and gun set up) while out of range of either. Even setting up six inches into the table he could have taken a half move turned forty five degrees to bring the sides to bear and stayed out of range while getting range himself.
Guess the point was he could have manipulated the range better given you have all guns firing from turn one. He in effect, gave up the entire initiative sink benefit of going last and taking full advantage of the range advantage he had. At the least he should have been outside discharge gun range.
The four foot by four foot table does present a small issue with running out the length tactics. Sure most furballs happen to one side but ships that fire sideways can do the run and gun thing on a longer table. Eh... could go either way on this one, but does explain the Sharlin fight where I didn't understand starting more to the side. The Ka'Tocs effectively occupied the whole length of the board.
Ripple
Ripple said:
The Table could have been 1000" x 1000", thats irrelevant. Since the scenario stipultates that both fleets must be 24" apart. Have a look in the Tourney pack! So the results would not change, apart from the players having to be hoisted over the table to get to their minis.
BTW most tourney's tend to be 4x4, and sometimes 6x4!
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Im afraid thats just not true (and I HAVE just looked at the tourney pack to double check the scenario).
The DEPLOYMENT ZONES. Are 24" appart, not the fleets. Sure the Vorlons can deploy at the front of theirs but the EA player can still depoly right at the back of his and be 36" away.
The DEPLOYMENT ZONES. Are 24" appart, not the fleets. Sure the Vorlons can deploy at the front of theirs but the EA player can still depoly right at the back of his and be 36" away.
