10 Sagg fleet, Mythbusted?

[Sock]

Well, I was comparing ship by ship, not FAP per FAP, for in that case, 20 hermes outshout an apollo as well and you actually can forget ANY form of relative balance if you make comparisons on that basis...

I`m not disagreeing that the Sag is broken, especially in the tourney list, but hey, that problem solves itself normally seen when the mysterious rumoured artifact of Armi and Geddona gets discovered [enter Twilight Zone music here]...

In the end though, no matter what bust, comparisons etc etc one would make, the system of PL`s will keep ships uneven compared to each other, so i guess that would be one of those things people have to live with. I do advocate that a judge should be legally allowed to fysically smash any ship of a 10x sag fleet with a hammer in a tournament when it gets destroyed in game... by the end of round 2 he should be out of the tourney automatically then :lol:

Well, maybe the good people at mongoose should consider a point based system. This would make it so that some of the less "awesome" ships at certain "PL's" would no longer be ignored, due to the fact that they would cost less points than their cooler cousins.

 

[Twin-Linked Aldades]

Wouldn`t change much I guess, say that a Chronos would cost 50 pts and a Assault Hyperion 40, people would still take the better ships even having less vessels. Kinda like GW, War machine etc etc etc...

Cheap stuff doesn`t pack enough punch unless really lucky, so why bother and just grab the better, but more expensive stuff.

Guess it`s all down to a player self if he takes some fluffy but sucky vessel or not...

 

[Burger]

The problem with a points system is that different players are better at using different ships than others. So who decides which ship is worth so many points?

For you, a Torotha might be better than a Strikehawk, so you think the Torotha is worth more points. But for me, I may be more effective at using Strikehawks, therefore I say a Strikehawk is worth more points.

 

[B5freak]

The problem with a points system is that different players are better at using different ships than others. So who decides which ship is worth so many points?

For you, a Torotha might be better than a Strikehawk, so you think the Torotha is worth more points. But for me, I may be more effective at using Strikehawks, therefore I say a Strikehawk is worth more points.

If the ships were reasonably comparable in terms of offensive and defensive capability I'd agree, but the problem is that we're seeing gross disparities. I may be great with a Torotha, using it's stealth and maneuverability to its maximum effectiveness, but if I'm going against a ship that's grossly overpowered, then all the fancy dancing in the world won't help me.

Just look at how certain ships of the same PL compare. (assuming SFoS lists)
Patrol - Corvan vs Sunhawk
Skirmish - Olympus vs Vorchan
Raid - White Star vs Solarhawk
Battle - Tertius vs Brokados
War - Octurion vs Tashkat

You can't tell me these are balanced matchups, and the "you can't compare individual ships, you have to look at the whole list" arguement be damned. If any of these were "specialty" ships I'd agree, but they're not. Ok, the Corvan is, but it's actually more powerful than the other race's "front-line" ship of the same PL.

If I have to pay a certain cost for what should be my standard ship of the line, then that ship should be at least relatively equal in power to any opponent's ship of the same cost, but right now there are just too many examples of where that's not true.

<end rant>

 

[Tank]

Bear in mind that (and it has been said before) ACTA is a "Fleet" game. Different ships, different roles, different ways to be used

 

[Goldritter]

Yes, but for some "Fleets" it´s not true.
There are some Ships which are so "good" that you don´t need others.

For Example the Octurion from the Centauri.
I´ve played a game against two Octurions and a Primus, with a EA Fleet of Chronos, Omega, Olympus and a Warlock mix.

The Centauri Player has destroyed one half of my fleet and don´t loose one Ship.

The advantage of the Front firing Arc of the Centauri Ships is enorm.

And so on.

On a game the Centauri player has devasted my fleet with only Covrans.
(i win, but only with luck.)

There are some ships which can be choose without support.

 

[Geekybiker]

I do advocate that a judge should be legally allowed to fysically smash any ship of a 10x sag fleet with a hammer in a tournament when it gets destroyed in game... by the end of round 2 he should be out of the tourney automatically then :lol:

But then the player uses counters and you're stuck again.

 

[Reaverman]

I do advocate that a judge should be legally allowed to fysically smash any ship of a 10x sag fleet with a hammer in a tournament when it gets destroyed in game... by the end of round 2 he should be out of the tourney automatically then :lol:

But then the player uses counters and you're stuck again.

Why, most paper counters I know cant take a beating from a hammer :twisted:

 

[Tank]

@Goldritter

I wouldnt have expected that EA fleet to be able to beat the Centauri fleet you described to be honest. I agree that Centauri beams are powerful but then so are Minbari.

 

[B5freak]

Tank,

I don't think you're getting it. Yes, we've heard the "Fleet to Fleet" arguement repeatedly, but that just doesn't cut it. I've played other games for years, and I'm used to the concept of Army/Fleet construction and the idea that some lists will require more finess than others, but that can't excuse Ship A being far more useful and powerful than ship B while still costing the exact same amount.

To have a specialist ship here or there, like a scout or missile ship, that is a little over-priced would be bearable, but that's not what we have.

You said that you thought the EA fleet should win. Why? Those two Octuions out range the EA fleet by 5", don't need to play the initiative sink game to get their beam shots off, and can go on concentrate firepower. If they concentrated on the Warlock in Turn 1 (at a distance where the Warlock would be hard-pressed to return fire), they could throw 12 AD of Beam, Double Damage. On Concentrate Firepower, that's conservatively somewhere around 28 to 30 points of Damage and Crew, not including impacts from Critical Hits. Heck, jump the Primus into range and you're looking at closer to 45-50. At that point the Warlock is pretty much out of the picture. That leaves me 3 Battle points, my Omega, my Chronos, and my Olympus', which frankly won't stand any more of a chance than the Warlock did.

Yes, yes, Vir, the mighty Earth Alliance Olympus can have Heavy Missiles. Big whoop. You've got what, 6 dice total on your Olympus' (2 AD each, 3 ships)? Somehow I think the Octurions' and Primus' interceptors can handle that.

And yes, I'm being somewhat "ranty", and the Minbari are actually not as bad as a properly played Centauri fleet. Point is, if you've got even just a few really good ships in your list that outclass anything that I can put on the table for an equivalent cost, then I'm pretty much boned.

 

[Hash]

Meh - you should have taken all Sags vs. that Centauri Fleet

 

[Silvereye]

Goldritter, B5freak@ So maybe it was the fleet selection that let the EA down. In that instance above I probably would have taken 2 more Omega's rather then the Warlock. Simply because the Warlock is no match for an Octurian or Bin'Tak, let alone 2 of them. What a Warlock can do is remove all those pesky escorts in short order while allowing your escorts (like Omegas and Hyperions) to attack the Octurions. The Centauri player did have any escorts in that game.

As to the points per ship, this is probably just an attempt to remove a problem that does not really exist. If a Saggitarius costs 50 points and you get 500 points for a the equivalent of a 5 point Raid, a player will still bring 10 Saggitarius. You need instead to limit the number of Saggitarius that could occur in a fleet. And this is just as easy to implement with the Priority system as a Points sytem.

As to comparing a White Star to a Solarhawk, perhaps the Solarhawk was given its particular PL to relect its rarity. I would also expect a White star to beat a Hyperion or Nova or Rongoth or.... when they fight one on one.

 

[Goldritter]

The main problem against centauri is that they have the better weapons and the better Iniative.

The only time I can beat them is on smaller Level missions, where their don´t use Primus or Octurion. But even the Covran is a hard ship. For it´s Stealth and is massed weapons.

I find it somewhat pitty, that the EA Ships are on Battel Level, because they can carry more Fighters as other ships on the Level. Their main weaponery is not so good. And it´s no Excuse, that they have weapons in the Aft firing Arc too.
There was no battle, where I had a chance to use this weapons.

 

[Goldritter]

The Centauri player did have any escorts in that game.

On the game I´ve played ,the Centauri Player has no Escorts.
Only the Tertius-Variant of the Primus and 2 Octurions.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Get the Warlock boresighted on an Octurion and I reackon you'll soo how powerful it is. Those super AP triple damage beams have to hurt...

 

[Silvereye]

Goldritter@ apologies, that sentance should have read "The Centauri player did not have any escorts in that game. " Unless the Primus was an 'Escort'.

I have also played EA vs Minbari at that level. I have used a Warlock and Omegas and had more success with the Omegas. While Stealth was more of an issue with the single Warlock, the Omega's had the oppertunity to fire more often, did more damage more consistently, and took longer to kill or disable.

Get the Warlock boresighted on an Octurion and I reackon you'll soo how powerful it is. Those super AP triple damage beams have to hurt...

And there in lies the problem, the G.O.D. cannon is an absolute beast, and any opponent will try their damndest to avoid it. I would rather have the guarentee that I can put 4AD of Super AP, Double Damage Beams on what I want, the extra range can come in handy too.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Boresighting is a problem no matter what your weapon is, though. The Warlock has an impressive array of secondary weapons in SFoS, and I'd certainly rate it one-on-one with the Octurion. Unless The Centauri beams get lucky your Warlock has to survive at least hit...

 

[Goldritter]

Get the Warlock boresighted on an Octurion and I reackon you'll soo how powerful it is. Those super AP triple damage beams have to hurt...

I´ve got one Octurion Boresightes and shoot all weapons at it (and the warlock was in the Rear of the ships).
The Result was, that it has loose not more than 1/3 of Crew and Damage points.

But the return fire from them both has cost 1/3 of the Damage Points and Crew Points of the Warlock. And the Octurions had only fired their rear firing Weapons.

4 AD for the Boresight Weapons are not soo good as you think.
If I had the choice I would take 6 AD Double Damage insteat of 4 AD Tripple Damage. And the Range of the Heavy Particle cannon is shorter too.

If I compare the Warlock with the Octurion or the Bin´Tak I don´t know if it´s really a War Level Ship. Again the Fighters are not so usefull and the Advanced Jump Point isn´t so usefull eather.

 

[Target]

I've seen a Warlock take down a balvarian in 1 round. Thats an awful lot of damage, nasty crits though only other ship i've seen do that is the Bin Tak.The missles make her espically dangerous.

 

[Tank]

@b5freak

Just to put the record straight I said that I didnt expect the EA fleet to win against a centauri fleet of 2 octurions & 1 Primus.

The other thing that I think people seem to be missing is the fact that if you look at the series The Minbari are the mosts advanced race, then the centauri, then the Narn, then EA then the league (kinda). Realistically speaking an Omega should not be as good as a Primus but it should be in the same priority level as it is the main ship of the line.

Its a drawback of the game ships in the same priority are not for the most part equal to each other but they are appropriate to that PL for their race.

Quite frankly I play EA a lot, in fact almost exclusively, and the only thing I seriously bitch about is my dice. Reaver/Burger/Hash dont say a word :lol:

we play the game for fun, its not like there is money at stake.[/b]