10 Sagg fleet, Mythbusted?

[prelude_to_war]

4x6 vs. 4x4 would make a difference on some level. For scenarios like Annihilation I see 4x6 becoming an obvious advantage for the Sag fleet - more room to maximize their 30" missiles.

But for this particular scenario it doesn't matter does it? If the Game Length of the scenario states, "10 turns or until either side has no ships on the table (Running Adrift, destroyed and surrendered ships do not count as viable ships)" then the Vorlon player should be able to destroy 5 ships pretty easily and leave.

Just so I'm clear, the mythbusters have found and successfully exploited tournament scoring is such a way that 2 of the 3 scenarios allow for easy defeat of the Sag fleet. I think that should be discussed moreso than the 4x4/4x6 and proper/improper use of the Sags. With the tournament scoring the way it is, those things don't seem like they'd affect the outcome as much....

 

[Stonehorse]

Hmmm I wonder if I could afford 10 Saggs? My EA need all the help they can get... I'm new to navel type Wargames.

Good battle report.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Hmmm I wonder if I could afford 10 Saggs? My EA need all the help they can get... I'm new to navel type Wargames.

Good battle report.

Don't do it! It's too beardy, even for one of us!

 

[Reaverman]

Hmmm I wonder if I could afford 10 Saggs? My EA need all the help they can get... I'm new to navel type Wargames.

Good battle report.

Don't do it! It's too beardy, even for one of us!

David is right, its not worth it mate. The whole point of the thread really, was to put peopl off it. Like I mentioned earlier, the game gets very boring. As one player fires once, and then waits as his opponents fires all his sags. The the Advent of 'A', this fleet will become a foot note in the tourney rules history.

 

[Geekybiker]

Just so I'm clear, the mythbusters have found and successfully exploited tournament scoring is such a way that 2 of the 3 scenarios allow for easy defeat of the Sag fleet. I think that should be discussed moreso than the 4x4/4x6 and proper/improper use of the Sags. With the tournament scoring the way it is, those things don't seem like they'd affect the outcome as much....

True. While the VHC is particularly good at this, the Sharlin or other large war vessel with good long range arc'd guns has the potential to abuse this against other fleets. Is the solution that there needs to be a bigger vp penalty for having no ships on board? I dont really know how much of a problem it really is though.

 

[Silvereye]

Its probably more of a blancing thing. As it would work best against fleets made up of low PL ships (or Hyperions) that can be destroyed quickly. You need to score enough kills to make jumping out, and surviving a turn without firing while you open a jump point, viable.

 

[Reaverman]

Its probably more of a blancing thing. As it would work best against fleets made up of low PL ships (or Hyperions) that can be destroyed quickly. You need to score enough kills to make jumping out, and surviving a turn without firing while you open a jump point, viable.

Which is what I mentioned in earlier posts

 

[Chernobyl]

how about 10 sag's vs. 10 olympii?

or, 10 sag's vs. 15 hermes? throw fighters into the mix and see what happens...

Chern

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I have read all this fuss about Sags and looked at the SFOS and tournament stats. It looked to me as though someone had moved a few missiles from forward to port and starboard. So what. Basically it is the same power as it was in SFOS

BUT

It has mysteriously dropped from Raid to Skirmish!!!!

Surely the only problem with Sags are that they should be Raid level, and someone introduced a typo into the tournament pack?

Captain Kremmen

 

[Triggy]

Everyone agrees that the simple thing is to move it back to Raid (with either the new or old stats - it doesn't really matter). The trouble is, this apparently wasn't a typo but with noone really saying that much from Mongoose, it's hard to tell one way or the other (particularly the playtesters who would have known if this was deliberate or not as they were responsible for the tournament lists).

 

[Ripple]

Lots of posts since my last entry.

There is a vp issue with the lone big ships jumping out/tactically withdrawing. A larger award would indeed help deal, but it would only improve things not change the dynamic. Are we okay with the concept of winning while withdrawing or are you attempting to stop that completely with any proposed change?

Second note is to Prelude and the Myth boys. Wasn't trying to derail your thread with comments on table size and range manipulation. Just noting that they are basic tactics and if they are not being used aggresively any test is in serious risk of being rendered inconsequental. If it was possible to destroy the HC before it could get its five kill in, which keeping out of range of one or more of the guns while still being able to inflict damage might have done, this whole discussion of vps might not have happened.

Look to earlier in the thread where several folks questioned the tactics used by the sag's. The comments were valid, and an analysis of the fight is to some degree essential to understanding how effective the two fleets were. To roll your eyes at someone because they can tell you a way to aviod the range of the heavy while still firing seems to be saying that actual possibilities are irrelevant if they don't serve you purpose. That makes this less a test and more a show trial to prove your already thought out conclusion.

Ripple

 

[prelude_to_war]

Second note is to Prelude and the Myth boys. Wasn't trying to derail your thread with comments on table size and range manipulation. Just noting that they are basic tactics and if they are not being used aggresively any test is in serious risk of being rendered inconsequental. If it was possible to destroy the HC before it could get its five kill in, which keeping out of range of one or more of the guns while still being able to inflict damage might have done, this whole discussion of vps might not have happened.
Ripple

I didn't see it as derailment but a debate on the wrong details of the mythbusting. Although critical factors (ie table size and range considerations) I don't think they would change the outcome of the game. Additional games on a 4x6 table maximizing missile range would be ideal, but again since the focus has shifted from 'destroy everything' to 'kill 5 and jump', I don't know if those factors come into play. Essentially, can the Sag's kill the HC before this happens? At 200 Hull+2D6 repair/turn, I'm not so sure...especially considering slow-loading, etc.

Mythbusters, would you be willing to run another test on 4x6 and use some/all of the tactical advice given for the Sags? Maybe someone from the Chicago crew would be willing to run a simulation as well?

BTW, where's our resident Sagx10 player anyway? I'd love to hear his thoughts on all of this, especially after you kicked me in the groin at GenCon Indy with this very fleet :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[alien027]

Second note is to Prelude and the Myth boys. Wasn't trying to derail your thread with comments on table size and range manipulation. Just noting that they are basic tactics and if they are not being used aggresively any test is in serious risk of being rendered inconsequental. If it was possible to destroy the HC before it could get its five kill in, which keeping out of range of one or more of the guns while still being able to inflict damage might have done, this whole discussion of vps might not have happened.
Ripple

I didn't see it as derailment but a debate on the wrong details of the mythbusting. Although critical factors (ie table size and range considerations) I don't think they would change the outcome of the game. Additional games on a 4x6 table maximizing missile range would be ideal, but again since the focus has shifted from 'destroy everything' to 'kill 5 and jump', I don't know if those factors come into play. Essentially, can the Sag's kill the HC before this happens? At 200 Hull+2D6 repair/turn, I'm not so sure...especially considering slow-loading, etc.

Mythbusters, would you be willing to run another test on 4x6 and use some/all of the tactical advice given for the Sags? Maybe someone from the Chicago crew would be willing to run a simulation as well?

BTW, where's our resident Sagx10 player anyway? I'd love to hear his thoughts on all of this, especially after you kicked me in the groin at GenCon Indy with this very fleet :evil: :evil: :evil:

Is in any way with another race to repay him in the same way? 10 of another ship can have that kind of fire power?

 

[Geekybiker]

BTW, where's our resident Sagx10 player anyway? I'd love to hear his thoughts on all of this, especially after you kicked me in the groin at GenCon Indy with this very fleet :evil: :evil: :evil:

He has a new job. I dont think he's on the boards nearly as much anymore.

 

[Chernobyl]

I'm thinking of a fleet of Vaarls or other small ship with stealth. 5 Shadow scouts would be tough.

Chern

 

[Ripple]

Trying to set up just such a contest but we're in mid-campaign and all our gatherings are starting to become playtest of stuff (we're adding some of RBax's stuff) or campaign battles. Hopefully we'll see a Mythbusters west thread soon to see if we are full of it or have some useful points. Not trying be a derider of the mythies efforts, I applaud them; but apparently we need pictures and stuff to show we actually know what we're doing.

Ripple

 

[Silvereye]

The other could be 10 Milani. They have three interceptors on each ship, combat lasers, and hold a total of 40 'fighters'. Which could put a new twist on the fleet action.

 

[Locutus9956]

In direct reply to Cptn. Kremmen: The reason they dropped it down was that the SFoS version did in practice perform quite poorly for a raid level ship and it rarely (if ever) saw use. I personally have no problem with the idea of making the Sag a skirmish level choice (indeed the closest comparisons I can think of to it, the Vree Xxyszzz or whatever the hell its called Torpedo saucer and the Drazi Darkhawk missile ship, are also skirmish I believe under SFoS)

The problem comes because, as you noticed they didnt really change the ship much and as a skirmish choice its clearly too tough for a ship that can put out that much hurt. Its not immediately apparent if you use one or two of em in a nice mixed fleet but if abused (as in the case of the 10 Sag tourney fleet) it becomes beardier than any other fleet I can think of (though as demostrated beardiness does not = indifatigable)

 

[Lord David the Denied]

though as demostrated beardiness does not = indifatigable

I'm pretty sure you mean invincible, there...

 

[Locutus9956]

no I know what I meant (though not the correct spelling ) Indefatigable (spelled correctly this time ) basically means untiring, incable of being worn down etc etc.

Which is very NEARLY the case withe sag fleet, you just cant wear the firepower down fast enough to save your own fleet in most cases.